782

PDF Document Uploaded Feb 2, 2026 by Unknown Updated by admin 1 views 349.43 KB
Folders as described
epstein court records
Extracted Text

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AJN GHISLAINE MAXWELL Defendant Hearing New York N.Y November a.m Before HON ALISON NATHAN District Judge APPEARANCES DAMIAN WILLIAMS United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York BY MAURENE COMEY ALISON MOE LARA POMERANTZ ANDREW ROHRBACH Assistant United States Attorneys HADDON MORGAN AND FOREMAN Attorneys for Defendant BY JEFFREY PAGLIUCA CHRISTIAN EVERDELL LAURA A MENNINGER and Bobbi Sternheim Attorney for Defendant Also Present Sarah Drescher Paralegal U.S Attorneys Office Camille Delgado Paralegal Haddon Morgan and Foreman Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Case called THE CLERK Counsel please state your name for the record starting with the government MS POMERANTZ Good morning your Honor Lara Pomerantz Andrew Rohrbach Alison Moe and Maureen Comey for the government THE COURT Good morning For the defendant MS STERNHEIM Good morning Judge Bobbi Sternheim appearing with Ghislaine Maxwell at counsel table along with Jeffrey Pagliuca Laura Menninger Christian Everdell And were assisted by Camille Delgado THE COURT Good morning everyone Thank you Please be seated All right We are here for a number of things Let me just get myself organized This is a pretrial conference Our jury selection process began on November 4th with the questionnaires trial to commence on November 29th Today we will address the defendants motion under Federal Rule of Evidence the defendants motion in limine to exclude under Federal Rule of Evidence and Daubert and the other outstanding issues that overlap with these motions as we discussed at our last conference on November 1st Just for clarity I explained this in my order Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps regarding public access yesterday The piece of these proceedings will be sealed as is expressly required by Federal Rule of Evidence That rule requires certain categories of evidence to be discussed at a sealed in camera hearing My plan is to hold that part of the hearing last do what we need to do with respect to logistical issues and Daubert here first and then seal the courtroom having everyone who is a nonparticipant leave and shutting down the overflow access at that point as required by law Given this I want to address a few logistical issues at the outset and then well move into Daubert I should say to the extent we run into any overlap during the Daubert hearing on any issues we have arranged space to do the equivalent of a sealed sidebar in the jury room I believe But again we can bifurcate OK Before I turn to the logistical issues any matters I should take up with what I have indicated Ms Pomerantz MS POMERANTZ Not from the government Thank you THE COURT Ms Sternheim MS STERNHEIM No Thank you THE COURT OK First on logistics as you know counsel we had a very successful return rate on the jury summons and in the two days that the questionnaire has been filled out we had prospective jurors fill it out Given Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps that my plan is to just do the morning session on Friday which would give us about another hundred or so people filling out the questionnaire which is what the target was in the to hundred range presumably about or so And that will give additional time for the parties to confer after they have reviewed and a fewer number of questionnaires to review given that we got there sooner Any concerns with that Ms Pomerantz MS POMERANTZ No Thank you your Honor THE COURT Ms Sternheim MS STERNHEIM No THE COURT Great Thank you I did previously set a tentative hearing for November 15th which is Monday at So thats firm Well have that hearing to the extent we need to to go over any pre voir dire process resolution of disputed questionnaires and the like if we need to and talk about that process more Ill also use it to address any outstanding motions in limine if I can In particular I think I will then have full briefing and hopefully be able to address defense motion on co-conspirator statements defense motion regarding alleged victim and defense motion on Exhibit If Im able to Ill also address the governments motions regarding exclusion of at least some testimony of Dr Loftus and Dr Dietz Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps And as I said well discuss voir dire and take up questionnaire issues as needed So thats Monday November 15th I would also like to just go ahead and schedule what will be our final pretrial conference for November 23rd is what I propose in the afternoon I still need to work through the logistics and space and timing on that use that to clear out any remaining issues or motions in advance of trial Ms Pomerantz how does that sound to the government MS POMERANTZ That all sounds fine Thank you THE COURT Ms Sternheim MS STERNHEIM That sounds fine I just have a question with regard to the commencement THE COURT Could you pull up the mike MS STERNHEIM Oh Sorry With regard to the commencement of voir dire what time will we begin on the 16th THE COURT I believe but I will confirm and see what time I believe what time we think the jurors will actually be ready to go checked in and ready to go and Ill work backwards from that give us time to get set up and address any preliminary issues So lets assume and Ill confer with the jury department MS STERNHEIM Thank you Just a moment Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Your Honor Mr Pagliuca has a hearing in Colorado Would it be permissible for him not to appear at the final pretrial conference Ms Menninger Mr Everdell and I will be present THE COURT Thats fine with me MS STERNHEIM Thank you THE COURT And I do plan to put out a logistics order after today that confirms the details of the conferences Ive just discussed and rooms and the like Do the parties have any other logistical matters or questions to raise before we return to the motions MS POMERANTZ No your Honor MS STERNHEIM No Thank you THE COURT OK So we can proceed to the Daubert with respect to the governments proposed expert Ms Pomerantz MS POMERANTZ Yes your Honor The government calls Dr Lisa Rocchio THE COURT I didnt catch I have been saying row Rodocchio in my head but it sounds like thats not right Could you say the name again MS POMERANTZ Its ROCK-ee-oh your Honor THE COURT Rocchio And I will ask everyone please speak into the microphones because thats the only way we can all hear you Counsel can question from the podium and remove masks Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct And the witness can come into the witness box and remove her mask as well Dr Rocchio may come forward MS POMERANTZ Thank you your Honor LISA ROCCHIO called as a witness by the government having been duly sworn testified as follows THE COURT And Dr Rocchio I know its a little awkward to the extent you can speak directly into the microphone we can hear you And I apologize if I have to remind you of that as we go because the acoustics are challenging THE WITNESS OK THE COURT Thank you Ms Pomerantz MS POMERANTZ Thank you your Honor THE COURT And Ms Pomerantz you need that mike in front of you MS POMERANTZ Thank you Is this all right your Honor THE COURT Yes but point it directly at you MS POMERANTZ OK Thank you DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS POMERANTZ morning Dr Rocchio Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct Dr Rocchio can you please describe your educational background have a masters degree and a doctoral degree in clinical psychology THE COURT I need you to speak up Sorry have a masters degree and a doctoral degree in clinical psychology THE COURT Thank you taking a step back before your masters degree and your other and your Ph.D did you receive an undergraduate degree have a bachelors degree with a dual major in psychology and English did you receive your masters from University of Rhode Island you mentioned your Ph.D Where did you receive that from was also from the University of Rhode Island is clinical psychology A.-1180.3Clinical psychology is the study of human thoughts and behaviors both abnormal and normal We also study psychopathology treatment methods But its generally the study of human behavior you describe your coursework and training in connection with your masters and Ph.D degree Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct So in a doctoral program such as the one I attended its the scientist-practitioner model So I took about three to four years of coursework in a broad range of subject matters such as assessment and treatment psychopathology ethics professional practice family systems forensic psychology tests and measurements things like that as well as specialty courses electives if you will in areas of particular interest to me which would have included at the time hostility and violence in the lives of women psychology of poverty forensic psychology In addition to the structured coursework we during the graduate period took courses in methods of practice saw patients and had clinical supervision again in a variety of types of treatment So individual therapy marital couple therapy for example the course of your graduate studies at the University of Rhode Island what if any topics in particular did you focus on focused in particular on areas related to social psychology traumatic stress interpersonal violence and eating disorders is traumatic stress A.-1180.3"Traumatic stress refers to a stressor that overwhelms an individuals person ability to cope In the DSM-V its defined as a stressor that is severe enough quite severe and Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct involves witnessing or experiencing an event that involves actual or threatened harm threatened death or sex and/or sexual violence also mentioned interpersonal violence What is interpersonal violence A.-1180.3Violence that one person does to another person Its a term in the field that refers to things such as rape and sexual assault intimate-partner violence sexual harassment child sexual abuse And although its an umbrella term using the term interpersonal violence it also refers to dynamics related to coercion and emotional abuse or child abuse that may not necessarily involve violence in a way that is commonly understood what is forensic psychology A.-1180.3Forensic psychology is the application of the science of psychology to a particular legal matter so using using psychology to answer or to assist a court in answering a legal question part of your work in your connection with your masters and Ph.D degrees did you perform clinical work with patients did how much time did you spend working with patients prior to doing while I was taking my coursework and taking the classes and treating patients I would say a minimum of to hours of face-to-face clinical time and then Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct prior to receiving my degree one of the requirements for my degree was a full-time one-year doctoral fellowship which was roughly the equivalent of to hours Q.-1180.3Approximately how many patients did you work with during your graduate studies my graduate studies so that would have been over a period of about six years hundreds issues did you treat those patients for broad range So issues related to eating disorders grief traumatic stress I during my internship I also worked in both inpatient and partial hospital settings so those individuals were dealing with sometimes major mental illness issues pertaining to suicidality A number of them had significant histories of traumatic stress and violence in their childhood and adult lives mentioned a predoctoral fellowship did you do your predoctoral fellowship the Yale University School of Medicine the course of your predoctoral fellowship at Yale what kind of work did you do spent six months working at Yale New Haven Hospital in a partial hospital program treating adults who needed a high level of care and on an outpatient basis Again they presented with a wide range of issues Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct I then also spent another six months working at the Yale Psychiatric Institute on an inpatient and partial hospital unit treating adolescents In the course of that work I also had some specialized training in the area of forensic psychology psychiatry you received your Ph.D what did you do next in your career had a full-year equivalent of a postdoctoral fellowship During that year I worked in a partial hospital program I treated patients in an outpatient psychotherapy practice and I taught courses at the college level in psychology did you do your postdoctoral fellowship was in Rhode Island I worked in a private practice setting in Rhode Island as well as Butler Hospital Specifically I worked in a partial hospital program that utilized dialectical behavior therapy in the treatment of women issues did you focus on during your postdoctoral fellowship dialectical behavior therapy is the primary issue that I focused on in terms of my training and its a treatment method that has been found theres a lot of evidence it was developed and has been shown to be highly effective for a chronically suicidal and self-injurious population of women Its since been generalized to a variety of populations But Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct that particular population is also known to have very high degrees of histories of childhood trauma of various kinds including sexual abuse neglect physical abuse your postdoctoral fellowship did you perform clinical work did your postdoctoral fellowship what if any research groups did you participate participated in an eating-disorder research group at Butler Hospital And then I also participated in an informal research group with a number of professionals from varying degrees There was an attorney there was a political science professor and other practitioners social worker psychologist And we would meet on a monthly basis to discuss issues relevant to the field of trauma psychology your fellowship what did you do next in your career founded an independent practice in psychology is your role in that practice currently am Im the owner I am responsible for hiring both clinical and administrative staff providing supervision setting policies and procedures and then of course treating patients And within that setting I also maintain an independent forensic practice Q.-1180.3Approximately when did you start the practice becoming licensed in just after becoming licensed Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct so around January of you supervise anyone in your practice supervise all of my employees yes many employees do you have have seven clinicians who are working for me at the present time are your responsibilities for supervising those employees A.-1180.3Providing them with education about the patients that theyre seeing They are all independently licensed themselves but to the extent that theyre treating patients on where issues come up that are particularly complex or involve some level of risk they come to me and talk to me I provide clinical and professional guidance on how to manage that I also lead a weekly team meeting in which we discuss cases and review review review patient care you briefly describe the work you do in connection with your practice in terms of my clinical work I treat individual adult patients currently although Ive treated adolescents in the past The majority of my personal caseload are patients who have experienced some form of traumatic stress largely interpersonal violence but I also treat other forms of traumatic stress such as first responders or individuals who Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct have been involved in motor vehicle accidents or traumatic loss for example And then I also have a smaller number of patients who are presenting due to issues in their life They might be going through a transition It might be a college student whos struggling to adapt someone going through a divorcement general life issues anxiety depression coping with a health problem that sort of thing mentioned a forensic practice In your forensic practice what sort of work do you do provide expert consultation psychological forensic psychological evaluations and expert witness testimony in civil and criminal cases most typically where traumatic stress and/or interpersonal violence are somehow related to the matter at hand although Ive also done other types of forensic work does your clinical excuse me your forensic practice compare to your clinical practice forensic practice is very different As a clinician Im working with individuals in the clinical room providing evidence-based treatment for the problems that theyre presenting to me and developing a relationship over time As a forensic psychologist Im taking on more of an investigative role and my work is to answer some particular psycho-legal question from an objective perspective and it involves certainly never taking what someone has to say at face value but rather a fairly well-established process of multiple Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct techniques to arrive at the my professional opinion if any licenses do you have licensed to practice psychology currently in the states of Rhode Island Massachusetts and New York your career for approximately how many years THE COURT Sorry May I ask Dr Rocchio that point you made about not taking what someone says at face value you distinguish that as part of your forensic practice THE WITNESS Yes THE COURT And what about in your clinical practice THE WITNESS In my clinical practice its not I have to deal with what the patients tell me in the room Its not my job to go out and verify any part of whats being told in the clinical room but rather to hear what theyre telling me and then relate that back to my other skills-training experience the scientific literature Someone for example might report to me symptoms of depression I could ask them how thats manifesting in their life but I dont go to their house to see if theyre actually staying in bed all day That kind of thing THE COURT Thank you BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio in your career for approximately how many years have you treated and assessed patients maybe slightly more than years at this point Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct a clinical psychologist what issues or areas have you specialized in A.-1180.3Earlier in my career as I said I specialized in the assessment and treatment of eating disorders and throughout my career Ive specialized in the area of traumatic stress and interpersonal violence about when have you focused on traumatic stress and interpersonal violence graduate school the course of your career have you treated and evaluated individuals who have experienced or reported experiencing childhood sexual abuse have is childhood sexual abuse A.-1180.3"Childhood sexual abuse refers to a process by which a child is involved engaged in sexual activity by an adult or sometimes by a peer whos generally three to five years older than them but it involves engaging the child in sexual activity when they either do not consent or are unable to consent when you refer to child what are you referring to the age of Q.-1180.3Approximately how many victims of childhood sexual abuse have you evaluated and treated in your career treated hundreds upon hundreds of individuals who have Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct either reported to me that theyve been sexually abused or have been referred to me after criminal proceedings have convicted a perpetrator So those would be cases where its been established that theyve been abused the course of your career how old are the patients youve treated and evaluated who experienced childhood sexual abuse treated over the course of my career individuals ages and up if this in your current practice how old are the patients you treat currently working with individuals predominantly who are and older addition THE COURT Sorry What youre describing generally is there a distinction to be made here in terms of your practice regarding childhood sexual abuse between your clinical side of your work and the forensic side Youre talking about your clinical work I presume THE WITNESS Im talking about my clinical work but it is true that in both my clinical and forensic practice I have done a fair amount of work with adolescents as well as adults and that currently I am predominantly working in both settings with the evaluation of adults THE COURT OK Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct BY MS POMERANTZ addition to your group practice do you work anywhere else do do you work on the voluntary faculty at Brown University Alpert School of Medicine in the department of psychiatry is your title a clinical assistant professor long have you been at the Alpert Medical School of Brown University July are your current responsibilities in your employment there supervise psychiatry fellows in their efforts to learn how to conduct adult psychotherapy and I also teach at some of the seminars that the psychiatry fellows attend sorts of things do you teach on Im asked to teach I teach on areas related to traumatic stress and interpersonal violence Rocchio Id like to show you Government Exhibit MS POMERANTZ Ms Durocher can you pull that up Rocchio what is that curriculum vitae it accurately describe your education and Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct qualifications does although it doesnt reflect my recent promotion at Brown from clinical instructor to clinical assistant professor MS POMERANTZ Your Honor the government would offer Government Exhibit THE COURT No objection MR PAGLIUCA No objection for purposes of this hearing your Honor THE COURT OK For the purposes of this hearing Government Exhibit is admitted Thank you Governments Exhibit received in evidence Q.-1180.3Turning to page what is listed there A.-1180.3Publications and professional presentations you summarize the subject of some of your published work published work generally deals in some way with traumatic stress ethics and professional practice issues So a recent article was looking at the forensic assessment of individuals who have experienced complex trauma childhood trauma severe and repeated childhood trauma Ive also written issues related to ethics as part of a public service for education of junior members in the newsletter for the Rhode Island Psychological Association you had any public articles published in a peer-reviewed journal Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct have does it mean to be in a peer-reviewed journal generally the peer-review process in my field involves generally people would either solicit or send either the journal would solicit requests for articles or people would submit articles to a journal for publication The journal would editors would then take those articles and send them out to professionals in the field who have agreed to serve as reviewers who have some sort of expertise related to the topic of the particular article Generally in that process its known as a blind review that is the reviewers dont know who the author is to help protect from bias They then are asked to review and comment on the article and then to make a recommendation regarding whether the article should be accepted whether it should be whether the author should be asked to make either minor or major revisions to the article and then resubmit or whether the article should be declined also mentioned professional presentations you given any professional presentations I have Q.-1180.3Focusing on pages sorry Just let me back up one moment What is a professional presentation a presentation that is given at a professional Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct conference where Im providing either information and knowledge in the course of a presentation or Im conducting a workshop either by myself or as part of a symposium a panel of presenters on a given topic your professional presentations peer reviewed they are does it mean for a professional presentation to be peer reviewed its the same peer-review process or its analogous to the process I described for publication In other words people will submit I would submit a presentation Theres a call for proposals I would provide a proposal of what it is I would like to present to the program coordinator They typically would have a team of individuals who then review all of the submissions and rate them And then they would select those that they feel are most relevant and worthy and professional to present on page of Government Exhibit have any of your professional presentations focused on trauma psychology or interpersonal violence vast majority of them have yes turning to pages and have you given any invited addresses have are invited addresses Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct are talks where rather than my submitting to a peer-review process individuals or organizations and institutions have requested that I give a presentation within my areas of expertise any of your invited addresses focused on trauma psychology and interpersonal violence vast majority yes testified about the peer-review process Have you ever served as a peer reviewer for publications I serve as a peer reviewer for several types of publications on the editorial board for the journal for the Division of Trauma psychology so its a trauma psychology journal and my role there is to conduct regular peer reviews for that journal I also serve as a peer reviewer kind of as a guest peer reviewer for a variety of other journals when its related to my topic matter So I believe Ive done that for psychological injury and the law as well as the journal of professional practice recent journal professional journal research and practice for example did you start serving as a peer reviewer for publications served as a peer reviewer for either professional presentations or publications for much of my career Im not sure when I first started doing it for journals but I know Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct Ive been doing it for conferences from you know years minimally you have any other involvement in professional publications apart from serving on the editorial board for the journal of trauma psychology not at the moment no you hold can I actually correct that answer Yes Actually the other thing is that for the publication I recently had in addition to submitting articles for peer review I was an invited guest editor in that particular edition special issue of that journal so that meant that I had to with my co-editor solicit articles and then review them for publication you belong to any professional organizations do you hold any leadership positions with those organizations do are those leadership positions that you hold currently the president-elect for the division of trauma psychology for the American Psychological Association I am also a member of the ethics committee for the American Psychological Association I serve as a on the executive board of the Rhode Island Psychological Association where I am Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio Direct their counsel representative to the National American Psychological Association I believe those are my current leadership roles Ive held others in the past do you do in your capacity as the president-elect of the division of trauma psychology THE COURT Ms Pomerantz youve gotten a little quieter so into the mike and speak up MS POMERANTZ Yes your Honor do you do in your capacity as president-elect of the division of trauma psychology I was elected to the position Its a three-year term I serve as part of whats called the presidential trio which consists of the past president the current president and the president-elect So Ill begin my term as president next year And then during my presidential year Im responsible for planning the topic and organizing and the theme of the program our divisions program at the annual conference for the American Psychological Association I sit on the executive board I work closely with the executive director overseeing managing things related to finance policy particular outstanding projects or projects that ad hoc projects that I wish to execute during my presidential year Continued on next page Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct BY MS POMERANTZ What is the division of trauma psychology the national organization for professional organization for psychology within that organization there are separate divisions that each focus on a distinct area specialized area of psychology And I belong to a number of those divisions of psychology you served in a leadership position with other professional organizations I have you briefly describe served on the Rhode Island psychological association Ive served on the committee for state leaders which is an organization within the American psychological association dealing with various states and advocacy for issues related to psychology do you keep up to date on the subjects in which you specialize a variety of ways Certainly I regularly review the scientific and legal literature I attend programming I consult with peers in my field I attend trainings And then of course I bring that information back to my experience both in clinical and forensic settings and learn from my patients and the people that I evaluate in my experience what areas have you received additional education and Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct training A.-1054.9Various treatment methods specific to treating individuals who have experienced various kinds of traumatic stress and personal violence childhood abuse complex trauma specialized practice in forensic psychology predominantly kinds of training have you received A.-1054.9Attending numerous workshops conducted by reputable experts in the field that typically have been vetted so that I can receive continuing education credits and are required on an annual basis for various forms of licensure Also there have been some trainings that I have done online For example I participate in a weekly webinar on issues relevant to the signs and practice of forensic psychology that is conducted by experts in the field I think that covers it what way do you train others have done a variety of things So I have been on the ethics committee for the psychological association and also on the American psychological association So part of what I do is we have a call in opportunity for our members and we provide education about ethical issues to and consultation to individuals who request that form of assistance As I mentioned Im a clinical supervisor for psychology fellows in medical school at Brown University I do provide consultation supervision to all of my employees And there are also times where others in the field may contact me on a professional Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct basis to consult with them on my area of expertise A recent colleague who is a forensic psychologist but not a forensic expert contacted me to ask to teach her and talk with her about some of the traumatic stress issues that were involved in her case types of training and presentations have you given in the area of childhood sexual abuse given a number of trainings on complex trauma And complex trauma refers to repeated abuse that occurs during childhood perpetrated generally by caregivers of the individual Ive also given so Ive given trainings on for general clinicians on how to assess trauma and that may include assessing for a history of childhood sexual abuse And I have given trainings for example at the Department of DCYF to investigators on how to manage the effects of being exposed to details related to traumatic stress in the course of their work Those would be some examples of trainings I have done do you keep up with the scientific literature in your field from my membership in a number of different divisions and of course international and national traumatic stress organizations most of those journals have some combination most of those organizations have professional journals in which they publish literature scientific peer review literature or they also have newsletters They also have Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct listservs to provide communication and then creating a healthy clinical picture as well Rocchio have you testified in court before have many times you qualified as an expert when you testified previously was what subject were you qualified as an expert was qualified as an expert in psychology with a specialized expertise in traumatic stress and complex trauma Rocchio I want to ask you about the specific opinions you have offered in this case How are most instances of childhood sexual abuse committed A.-1054.9Majority are committed without the use of force Theyre committed with the use of nonviolence coercive and controlling tactics but without the use of physical force and violence most instances of childhood sexual abuse committed by strangers or people known to children generally committed by people known to the children in the context of a relationship between the perpetrator and the child on your experience research and training are you Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct familiar with the term grooming am is grooming A.-1054.9Grooming is a term that is used in the professional literature and in the field to refer to a series of tactics and strategies that are commonly experienced by victims and utilized by offenders in the course of deceiving the child building a relationship of trust and then eventually sexually abusing the child you please describe specific grooming strategies various researchers have identified grooming strategies involving a series of tactics that typically fit into several stages They typically involve strategies to identify a victim strategies to have access and to isolate the victim So for example many offenders put themselves purposefully in situations where theyre going to have a great deal of access whether thats a boy scout troop or a school setting or that type of thing a coach And then there are various coercive and manipulative strategies that are utilized to develop a relationship of trust prosocial behaviors things that might be gift giving or letting the child know how special they are showering the child with affection Theres been some comparison in the literature a significant amount of comparison to strategies that are basically akin to what two adults might do in a courtship process But basically the Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct offender is trying to win over the trust and affection of the child Then theres another stage where the child is gradually exposed to greater levels of physical touch and sexual content and material that slowly escalates over time and then strategies that keep the relationship going and help to prevent exposure on your experience research and training are you familiar with the term grooming the environment am is grooming the environment a term that applies to commonly recognized phenomenon and strategies tactics modus operandi used by perpetrators in the service of getting them access to victims and building that relationship of trust So in addition to manipulating the child theyll manipulate individuals or institutions in that childs life so that theyre able to have greater access So they might for example befriend a childs parent and hold themselves out as a trustworthy person who is going to help say a single mom and hell serve as a father figure to the kid Or they might groom an institution they might work their way up through the boy scouts for example and become a leader there become a pillar in the community to give them an air of respectability disarming gaining trust you familiar with the term attachment am Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct is that term A.-1054.9Attachment basically refers to the relationship between one person one individual and another The original research was conducted looking at the attachment as a connection between an infant and a caregiver her mother But since has expanded into talking about the relational dynamics between either children and caregivers children and family members or for example two intimate partners as adults you please explain the relationship if any between attachment and grooming when I talked about some of the strategies that are utilized tactics modus operandi in order to build that relationship within the context of childhood sexual abuse the function and end result of that is to create a relationship or attachment and connection between the perpetrator and the child whereby the child trusts and becomes dependent upon the perpetrator on your experience research and training are you familiar with the term coercive control am is coercive control A.-1054.9Coercive control refers to a strategic pattern of behavior thats designed to attain and maintain control in a relationship So coercion means getting somebody to either do or not do something that they wouldnt ordinarily do otherwise Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct And it is combined with control tactics like isolation or building access to resources so that the power in the relational dynamic lies with the person who is using coercive control It was initially developed and conceptualized to help understand part of intimate partner violent relationships but has since been found to exist in multiple forms of victimization mentioned specific grooming strategies earlier Can you give examples or specific examples of specific grooming strategies giving spending time alone giving hugs giving massages that gradually escalate to disrobing or more overtly sexualized behavior talking about sex Basically normalizing behaviors and then over time normalizing sexualized behaviors and then over time moving that line of whats normal whats appropriate whats happening within this relationship closer and closer to sexual abuse But the strategies that are utilized for the building of relationship are the same types of things that anyone might do to build trust and attachment Again giving attention making the child feel special gift giving spending taking them out to special places purchasing things for them Also things that make them perhaps more dependent upon you So if you are offering to pay for things and this person is in need Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct of money and if you are giving them something that will increase their dependency Also the adult-child relationship the power differential THE COURT The specific examples you are mentioning are those found in the literature THE WITNESS They are THE COURT So you derive your views as to those specific examples from not from your clinical work or your forensic work or maybe both but the ones you have cited just now you find in peer-reviewed literature THE WITNESS Yes Its an interaction So everything Im talking about today is derived from my education and experience as well as my knowledge of the literature But yes for many years those specific tactics and strategies have been described in numerous peer-reviewed articles And your Honor if I may its also I believe important to know that those are articles that have studied reports and behaviors that offenders talk about doing as well as things that victims have talked about experiencing THE COURT Thank you BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio you gave an example of gift giving how can you tell if that is grooming or innocent behavior I said it depends on the context in which the gift giving is happening And you have to look at the entire Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct relationship As I said child sexual abuse is a process Its not an isolated event To the extent that gift giving is being done in the service of increasing someones dependency on you for the purposes of increasing your ability to coerce and control them ultimately for sexual abuse then that gift giving would be considered part of to be part of the grooming process long has the concept of grooming been in the scientific literature A.-1054.9Grooming itself has been in the scientific literature at least since the But the scientific literature that has looked at the relational components of child sexual abuse and the ways in which victims become coerced into quote unquote complying with sexual activity by an adult has been well established in the study of child sexual abuse for quite some time a high level what are your opinions on grooming based on based on the interaction between my education my training the skills I have developed over time certainly my ongoing review of the scientific literature and my practice your education how did you learn about the concept of grooming again in my education part of how I learned that it was from my study of the process of child sexual abuse and both Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct what that typically entails not just the sexual components but also the psychological and emotional components and their effects And also certainly in my reviews of the literature and things that we talked about in graduate school and in other trainings what sorts of behaviors offenders commonly use in order to engage children in that relationship your clinical practice have you treated and evaluated patients who have reported being groomed in connection with sexual abuse have Although they dont typically use that word As I said most patients including patients I treat who have been abused as children have had abuse happen in the context of a relationship The abuse hasnt involved explicit force So to the extent that they talk about the ways that they came to know love and depend upon the perpetrator yes they talk and describe at length the types of behaviors that would meet the definition of grooming Q.-1054.9Approximately how many patients have you treated evaluated who have reported behaviors consistent with grooming would say the vast majority of patients I have treated who have reported childhood sexual abuse again that would be hundreds upon hundreds are the ages of the patients you have treated who have reported behaviors consistent with grooming have treated patients who are adolescents and patients Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct who are adults you aware of other psychologists treating and evaluating patients that reported behaviors consistent with grooming A.-1054.9Absolutely Its common in the field do you know that A.-1054.9Through my review of the clinical research its something thats well documented in articles or books chapters that have been written for example about how to provide treatment to patients Its written in the literature around what sorts of symptoms might patients present with and why what are some of the common difficulties Of course its written in case studies And then through my conversations with peers and of course trainings I have attended conducted by experts in the field your forensic practice have you evaluated survivors of childhood sexual abuse have does forensic evaluation of someone who has reported childhood sexual abuse entail in general a forensic evaluation is a multistep process As I mentioned before its not just talking to someone So a forensic evaluation as I conduct it involves first reading all of the relevant external collateral information relevant to the case So if its a criminal case Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct that might be crime scene photos autopsy photos that might be transcripts of grand jury testimony state police interviews In a civil case I might also look at things like medical records and psychotherapy records So any and all documents relevant to the case Then I typically do somewhere between eight and ten hours of face-to-face evaluation that involves both psychological testing and clinical interviewing I also conduct collateral interviews with others who have information thats relevant to the case and to the issues at hand And then I synthesize all of that information And if requested will prepare a report Most cases dont end up going to trial But if they do and Im asked to testify I would then testify in those cases you evaluate issues of grooming in connection with your forensic practice I have you give me an example of a forensic evaluation that has involved grooming-related issues So for example in the civil arena where I am asked to say somebody has alleged that theyve been sexually abused as a child or maybe we know that they have been sexually abused as a child because the perpetrator has been criminally convicted I may be asked to assess does this individual at the present time have any current psychiatric difficulties or Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct impairments And if so to what degree if any are those attributable in whole or in part to the alleged sexual abuse So as part of that assessment Im looking at the dynamics in the relationship between the individual and the perpetrator And we know that the grooming behaviors that induce that relationship of trust and attachment have a significant negative affect on an individuals psyche and can strongly and negatively impact their functioning afterwards So those are things Im looking for Rocchio to be clear in your forensic work do you assume that everything a victim reports is true A.-1054.9Absolutely not you explain that role in a forensic capacity is to provide an objective answer based upon my evaluation and my review of the literature And it is not dependent on who is hiring me for example So as I mentioned the reason that I look at all of these other documents and the reason I administer psychological tests and talk to third parties is precisely because Im looking for consistencies and inconsistencies in what the individual is telling me in order to form an opinion As part of my duty in that role is to investigate various hypotheses in a forensic setting it has to be that Im not being told the truth take a step back to be clear in your clinical work do Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct you assume everything a victim reports is true I do not you explain in a clinical setting it is not my role to determine whether something is or is not true Of course when someone is telling me something Im using my skill and experience to take that information in and also to inquire as I communicate to that individual and provide treatment But as I mentioned earlier I dont go out and try to see well this person is having trauma related to a motor vehicle accident or a shooting on the job I dont go and ask them to provide me with newspaper articles to verify whether that event happened do the grooming that you have seen in your forensic practice compare to what you have seen in your clinical practice remarkable consistency in what I see in my work over time in my forensic practice my clinical practice and what I have been trained and whats in the literature you describe at a high level the scientific literature upon which your opinions on grooming are based there have been a number of studies over time that have looked at the tactics modus operandi skill manipulative techniques that have been used by perpetrators And those studies have been published in peer-review journals So there are studies that have done interviews with offenders who have Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct been convicted and who admit to their crimes asking them what sorts of techniques they utilized in order to perpetuate the sexual abuse There have been studies that have been done with victims in terms of asking them what sorts of experiences they had There have also been studies that have been conducted with professionals in various fields law and human services and psychology about the types of tactics and strategies that have been used do the results of those studies compare remarkable consistency And even though definitions may vary in studies as they always do there are common a clear set of common strategies techniques and behaviors that have been identified in the literature across time and across various samples you review articles about grooming what sorts of things are you looking for to determine the quality of articles you are relying on looking at whether or not its in a peer review journal Im looking at how a particular study was conducted So for example if theyre doing content analysis of an interview are they making sure that ways that that interview has been coded by multiple individuals to get some sort of consistency there Im looking at how they chose the sample size Im looking at if its a review that summarizes the state of the literature is the literature review Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct comprehensive I might go back to some of the original sources cited in the reference list for example and look at those articles to see if in the article Im reading when they describe article when I read article is that actually what article is saying Also there are researchers who have come to be known in a particular field so I might look at who the authors are and where the research is being conducted what you have already described can you give any examples of how studies are conducted conducted in a variety of ways So for example I think I may have already described it but there are a variety of ways people might interview offenders and ask them what they do what strategies and tactics they use There might be studies that look at victims reporting what their experiences are Or there might be studies where youre looking at treatment of victims and what are some of the issues that patients are bringing to treatment that need to be addressed so the strategies that they experienced might come out that way Certainly studies have been done interviewing various experts asking them what are strategies And then looking for what are the strategies that experts from a variety of different fields agree upon to a degree of certainty and what do these professionals agree are part of what they see studies use the same or different definitions of grooming Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct the definitions can vary Theyre all generally referring to the same process But the specific definition may vary in different studies So you have to be sure that the literature when reviewing it you have to understand what definition theyre using can you rely on the empirical studies when there is variance across the different definitions of grooming used in those studies the extent theyre talking about the same kind of process in the context of childhood sexual abuse And again grooming not only may there be variances in definition of grooming but the same patterns and behavior are sometimes referred to by different names But what you really want to look for are the commonalities So for example are what offenders tell us they do does that to what degree of overlap is there between that and what victims tell us that they have experienced When professionals talk about the kinds of behaviors how much overlap and agreement is there between professionals say in similar fields but also in different fields in characterizing these common phenomenon the common phenomenon studies look at samples of substantiated cases of abuse does that mean some of the research has been done that has looked at Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct and interviewed individuals where the abuse has been known either because the perpetrator has offended has admitted I apologize or has been found guilty So that would be an example of a legally substantiated case Other times they find studies where its been substantiated in other ways there have been interviews done with children who presented in medical settings with gonorrhea and talking with them about sexual abuse or abuse with kids in real time MS POMERANTZ Can you pull up Government Exhibit please Rocchio do you recognize this do is it an article about coercive control is the author A.-1054.9Jacquelynn Duron Laura Johnson Gretchen Hoge and Judy Postmus MR ROHRBACH Your Honor the government would offer Government Exhibit THE COURT Any objection MR PAGLIUCA Not for purposes of this hearing your Honor THE COURT Government Exhibit is admitted for the hearing Governments Exhibit received in evidence Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio to prepare for this hearing did you provide the government with samples of literature did this one of the samples you provided this article peer-reviewed a high level can you describe this article what this article did it reviewed information provided by a variety of professionals who had expertise specifically in offender behavior and tactics that are utilized by offenders in sexual abuse professionals from a variety of fields And it asked them to talk about some of the tactics used in furthering the relationship and developing a dynamic of coercive control What was significant in particular about this article is not only did they look at coercive control as it applies to childhood sexual abuse but they also looked at how coercive control patterns of behavior play out in multiple forms of victimization trafficking elder abuse or pimp and sex worker relationships intimate partner violence rape sexual assault that sort of thing this article talk about grooming does Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct this article use any particular sampling sampling was of professionals from a variety of fields And it looked for content analysis and commonalities in what these professionals reported were common behaviors and tactics that were used across types of victimization if at all does that impact your assessment of the study and article impacts it significantly Because what this article is doing is not only is it replicating what has previously been found about tactics that are used its extending that literature and saying that these are common patterns of behavior that are used in the service of coercive control in a variety of types of victimization So its identifying a common tactic thats used in a number of settings to gain and maintain power and to coerce a victim into some form of behavior THE COURT Let me ask on that one of the examples you gave was the pimp and sex worker relationship In some of the literature and in the cases trauma bonding is the phrase thats used THE WITNESS Yes THE COURT Whats your understanding of the similarity the overlap and prevalence of understanding of these two concepts in the field THE WITNESS In the field theres significant so Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct trauma bonding is typically referring to a relationship of attachment and connection between the pimp and the sex worker We know that the majority of sex workers are under some third-party control And we know that the trauma bonding is often the means by which the pimp has coerced the sex worker to get them to do their bidding similar to the kinds of techniques that traffickers might use So theres a significant amount of overlap And there has been actually some recent research this is one example but others have specifically looked at grooming as it applies to trafficking for example THE COURT Thank you BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio withdrawn MS POMERANTZ Can we pull up Government Exhibit please BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio do you recognize this do is it an article validating a model of child sexual abusers wrote this A.-1054.9Georgia Winters Elizabeth Jeglic and Leah Kaylor MS POMERANTZ The government offers Government Exhibit Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct MR PAGLIUCA No objection THE COURT Government Exhibit is admitted to the hearing record Governments Exhibit received in evidence BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio is this one of the articles you provided to the government is was this article published or I cant read the date right now I think it was this article peer reviewed is It was published in October Thanks I dont have my glasses on was the conclusion of this study what these authors did is a two-part study So the first thing that they did is they did an extensive literature review to look for commonalities in the literature about what are the commonly described stages that a perpetrator engages in and what are the behaviors that are associated with those stages So they did a very comprehensive literature review They identified a number of specific behavioral and observable strategies that individuals have identified in the literature They then got a group of recognized individuals in Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct various fields with a high level of expertise I believe there were about professionals of them had doctoral degrees and they all had a significant number of publications having to do with offender behavior they did a scientific analysis whereby they had the professionals rate the relevance of not only the stages of grooming to their understanding of tactics and strategies utilized by offenders but also the specific developments of very specific behaviors So they had each of those behaviors rated on a four point scale by all of the professionals And then they conducted analysis to see which of the items for which there was a high level statistically significant level of agreement between the professionals as to which of these behaviors were relevant And they then went back and they asked of those behaviors where was their agreement on which stages that these specific behaviors belonged to So I think they were able through that analysis to get a statistically significant agreement about behaviors I think they narrowed it down to about specific behaviors in this particular model want to direct your attention to Page is this table this is a table that if you can see there are five stages of the model the first being the victim selection then Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct gaining access and isolation trust development desensitization sexual contact and physical contact And then beneath each stage level there is a list of the behavioral and the observable and measurable behaviors where there was a high level of statistical significance in agreement among varying professionals as to the relevance both to the grooming process and to the stages want to direct your attention to Page What is this table these as I mentioned there was an original list of about specific behaviors that have been found associated with grooming in the literature fairly consistently These are the behaviors that were part of that original list where perhaps there were more differences of opinion but the level of agreement among the professionals in this particular study did not reach the level of statistical significance is your takeaway from the study in the article think this is a study that has really done a good job of integrating what we know and pulling together the literature and then putting it to an empirical test There have been other ways to empirically understand and test what is referred to as grooming I think this is another way that provides some validation of a proposed model of the ways in which grooming works MS POMERANTZ You can pull that down Id like to Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct show Dr Rocchio Exhibit BY MS POMERANTZ you recognize this do is it an article on the construct of grooming in child sexual abuse that identifies both a summary of literature as well as some of the conceptual and measurement issues that were present at the time the article was written wrote this article A.-1054.9Natalie Bennett and William ODonohue MS POMERANTZ The government offers Exhibit MR PAGLIUCA No objection THE COURT Thank you Government Exhibit is admitted into the hearing record Governments Exhibit received in evidence BY MS POMERANTZ this one of the articles that you provided the government is did you provide the government with this article think that this article does a really good job of summarizing much of the previous literature that has been published and peer-reviewed sources about the grooming process It identified some of the issues and varying definitions It Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct provided data supporting that this is a process that is well known and well established in the literature and then it pointed to directions that were needed for future work It pointed to some of the concerns about definitions and things that suggestions basically for issues that needed to be addressed in future research you agree with all of the conclusions of this article do not want to direct your attention to Page And I want to zoom in on the paragraph above current definitions Its about four lines down It starts with Furthermore MS POMERANTZ We can highlight those next two sentences Rocchio could you review the highlighted text MS POMERANTZ And for purposes of the record your Honor Im happy to read that THE COURT The sentence beginning with Furthermore and ending with negatives MS POMERANTZ Thank you your Honor BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio what is your reaction to this think its incomplete and I disagree with the conclusion you explain Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct I think that certain things some psychologists use clinical judgment on whether or not a perpetrators behaviors are considered grooming But that certainly doesnt at all reference the scientific literature to determine what is and is not considered grooming In addition we also have data thats been provided by offenders themselves In terms of reliability and validity of these judgments the validity in psychological science refers to the degree to which you are measuring this particular thing what you think youre measuring So for example the degree to which there is significant overlap between what victims say they experience and what offenders say that they have done provides us with a measure of validity The degree to which different groups of individuals whether thats groups of professionals or groups of victims agree in studies what it is that the process what kinds of behaviors whats been done to the victim what kinds of behaviors are associated with the grooming process to the extent those professionals agree thats a measure of reliability Because youre getting different studies different groups different samples where theres significant overlap in what this dynamic and what this concept is MS POMERANTZ I want to turn to Page want you to focus on the section under conclusions and the first two sentences so Currently Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct THE COURT Can you repeat that please MS POMERANTZ The first two sentences of that paragraph starting with currently and ending with has occurred or is occurring THE COURT Thank you BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio what is your response to those two sentences I think that I would not agree with those conclusions I also think its important to recognize that this article was published many years ago And theres certainly been evolutions and additional literature since the time of publication But even at the time of publication I think its a little misleading If theyre defining consensus there as universal agreement as to exact everything within the process of grooming then sure But when were talking about any pattern of behavior or any phenomenon within the social science its a complicated phenomenon Youre never going to get universal agreement among experts Thats why you have to look at whats the particular definition used within a study But most definitely theres consensus within the scientific literature about the phenomenon not only of grooming but the phenomenon of child sexual abuse itself what the experiences are of the victim and what the behaviors are of the offender and also the impact of those behaviors in terms Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct of how it affects an individual So if we know that its a relationship of trust for example that typically results in feelings of shame on the part of the victim obviously we had to study how that trust was built up and how that relationship developed over time Thats well established And theres consensus that that is a significant part of the dynamics of child sexual abuse want to turn to the next two sentences starting with The field possesses and going through does not meet some of the criteria in the Daubert standard you see that Dr Rocchio is your reaction to the statement that grooming is not a construct that ought to be used in forensic settings I indicated I think that it is absolutely part and parcel of a forensic evaluation to look at what are the behaviors what is their impact and what was their function So I think that to the extent that we have the ability in a forensic setting in particular to look for corroboration to look for consistency among different data points between what you are being told by an individual between what other people have observed for example what people are reporting on measures and tests what individuals have told in a contemporaneous setting I think there are a lot of ways you Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct can get consistency And its a concept that is frequently referred to in forensic studies more recent articles respond to some of the concerns raised by this Bennett and ODonohue article do you please explain article we looked at earlier by Winters attempted specifically to address some concerns So she attempted to validate the grooming model And she very specifically wanted to see okay of course theres not going to be universal agreement on every single behavior but she did a statistical study to find out specifically what behaviors do the professionals and the experts agree upon And again remembering that all of the behaviors even the ones that in that particular study didnt meet the statistical significance in that study all of those behaviors were behaviors that have been commonly referred to and described in the literature Rocchio how do error rates factor into this literature I think when we talk about error rates within the field of psychology the kind of gold standard is when you have a particular technique or a drug and you ideally would randomly assign people one who receives the drug one who doesnt receive the drug and I would kind of compare whether how effective it is For obvious reasons you cant assign some Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct people as sexually abused and others not So you have to look for other ways to assess acceptability within the scientific literature peer review and general thoughts about concepts And so thats where you look at the reliability as in what do the experts consistently agree to among themselves You look at the degree of overlapping studies perhaps studying it in different ways but are they still coming up with the same clear description of the types of things that happen in the context of child sexual abuse So for example there was a content analysis done through interviews to pull out what some of those studies have found and to the degree that theyre rated by multiple reviewers and then compare the ratings of those reviewers thats an indices of reliability MS POMERANTZ I think were done with Government Exhibit Can we pull up Government Exhibit please Rocchio do you recognize this do is it an article describing the evolution of the word grooming and how its been used as well as the term seduction to describe this commonly understood pattern of behavior and the strategies used by child perpetrators in the service of sexual exploitation and abuse Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct wrote this article Dietz MS POMERANTZ Your Honor we move to admit Government Exhibit MR PAGLIUCA No objection THE COURT Government Exhibit is received Governments Exhibit received in evidence BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio did you provide the government with this article did did you provide the government with this article was asked to provide examples to the government of literature in the field that I thought might be helpful to the court to understand the concepts that Im talking about This does a really nice job of pointing to the part that the terms grooming and seduction refer to a pattern of behavior thats widely known and well established to be part of the dynamics of sexual abuse But in particular I appreciated the authors emphasis later on in the article of some of the problems with the words seduction and some of the ways that much earlier literature erroneously used terminology that could inappropriately indicate a victim is blamed for the abuse that they have been subjected to MS POMERANTZ Can you pull up Page please Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct wanted to direct your attention to the use of the term grooming so in that top paragraph If you could review the section of the article that starts with If their use of the term grooming and all the way to the end of that paragraph and let me know when you have had a chance to review it please Rocchio what is your response reaction to this passage a bit confusing as to the point thats being made I feel like theyre trying to the author here seems to be mixing different applications of the term that they use grooming so it looks like in part hes talking about what is true in the literature which is that were not particularly good as a field of taking frankly many behaviors at all and predicting future behaviors So hes saying accurately that we cant look at specific behaviors alone as predictors And certainly the use of the term grooming again is used to describe a process a pattern of behaviors Im not here today to say that if somebody engages in any one of these particular behaviors yes we know youre a child abuser So hes making that point But I dont think anybody I dont think that if thats his point I wouldnt disagree with that Except that hes then going on I disagree where he says that grooming then cant involve behaviors that might in fact be prosocial or normal Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct Again were talking about a use of a variety of strategies for the purpose of sexual abuse So these are ways in which tactics ways in which an offender might manipulate a child to developing a relationship of trust and attachment Obviously one can develop a relationship of trust and attachment in a variety of contexts But when were talking about grooming the specific context is when theres been coercive control and some form of organization Rocchio taking a step back MS POMERANTZ You can pull down Exhibit how have some of the behaviors you have seen in grooming literature compare to behaviors you have seen in your forensic practice and your clinical practice theres remarkable similarity in the impact of those behaviors In my clinical practice victims talk about I really trusted him I thought he was a nice guy he paid so much attention to me he helped me out he drove me places he bought me sneakers when I didnt have any he was the only person who cared about me And that significantly in a clinical arena that significantly impacts the individuals confusion and self-blame and often experiences of shame Similarly in a forensic setting it can often contribute to an increase in the kinds of damage and harm that I need to assess that have stemmed from an incident your view is the concept of grooming generally accepted Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct within the scientific community absolutely on your experience research and training are certain individuals at higher risk of being sexually abused as children are certain groups who are more vulnerable and theres a higher prevalence of child sexual abuse yes factors contribute to increased risk or higher vulnerabilities there are factors that have been studied and found in literature that have to do with the individual themselves So for example individuals who are particularly needy and vulnerable individuals who have a prior history of victimization you know are at much higher risk of revictimization individuals who are part of marginalized groups For example we know theres very high rates of sexual assault childhood sexual abuse among especially minority children or among intellectually and cognitively disabled children We know that individuals who come from certain types of family structures can be also at higher risk For example where theres only one parent or children who come from home environments where theres abuse of other types going on in the home So there might be other siblings who are being abused or the parents might be engaged one of the parents might be Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax2 Rocchio Direct abusing another parent or another child so where theres other violence those groups are also at higher risk There have been other studies that look at poverty as a risk factor So those are just examples of the types of vulnerabilities that have been well established in the literature Continued on next page Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct a high level what are your opinions on which individuals are at higher risk of child sexual abuse based on training and my education certainly my clinical and forensic experience as well as my review of the clinical and scientific literature your education and training did you learn about the concept of certain groups being at higher risk of childhood sexual abuse because again in the phenomenon of child sexual abuse in general not were looking at vulnerability factors i.e whos more at risk So to the extent that I was learning about ways that you might want to target prevention for example where you might want to make those interventions but then also we know that an individuals prior vulnerabilities interact with their subsequent experiences of victimization and have a profound effect on the outcome the adverse outcomes of the abuse itself So it was covered in a number of different ways through the course of my education and training your clinical practice have you treat and evaluated patients who belong to higher-risk groups you please explain particular we know that gender is a higher-risk group and we know that women and girls are at higher risk for child Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct sexual abuse So to the extent that more of my patients are women than men certainly thats a vulnerability But also because especially now Im working with adults Im working with people who have been repeatedly victimized at various points in time in their lives And you can really clearly see the pattern and its something I often have to address with patients because they inquire about it they dont understand You know why is it that this has happened to me so many times And again we know from the revictimization literature that when someone is abused they are at higher risk of being abused at later points in time Also you know sometimes the clinical literature individuals will talk about the specific issues in their family that perhaps increase their vulnerability They were always alone They you know their mom was sick and this person had lots of opportunity to kind of befriend the family and you know therefore had greater access as a result of that vulnerability or perhaps they were desperate for attention care love and concern from another person because those are common childhood needs and maybe they werent getting that at home So those are all the kinds of things that would come up in and have come up in my over years of treating patients your forensic practice do you examine the impact of Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct prior vulnerabilities with respect to childhood sexual abuse do you explain again Ill use an example in the civil arena If Im asked as part of my forensic evaluation to opine about the impact of an alleged event say childhood sexual abuse and the degree to which a persons current difficulties are related to that event I have to take prior vulnerability into account because part of what Im looking at is how can I determine which of these persons current difficulties are related to the sexual abuse or maybe related to other things that have happened in their past So we know because of the vulnerability literature that if somebody is being abused in adolescence it wouldnt be at all unusual for them also to have a history of earlier childhood sexual abuse So I have to look at the interaction of those prior vulnerabilities and ways in which those prior vulnerabilities both may have made the individual more vulnerable to the grooming behavior and to the subsequent sexual abuse and also ways in which those prior vulnerabilities may have interacted with the abuse to create more adverse outcomes for the individual Im evaluating does what you have observed in your forensic practice compare to your clinical practice with respect to individuals in higher-risk groups Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct its highly high consistent in both my criminal and civil civil practices Even if Im not even if the issues specific to the sexual abuse are not the issue at hand certainly when Im doing a comprehensive evaluation Im taking a history and people are describing their prior experiences the kinds of experiences they talk about in the context of having experienced childhood sexual abuse the relationship theyve had with the perpetrator the kinds of things that the perpetrator has done to kind of engage them into that relationship for the purposes of sexual abuse are very consistent there empirical data to support your view that certain groups of children are at higher risk of being sexually abused is you explain When were studying any phenomenon I want to look at the prevalence which is you know how often does this thing in this case child sexual abuse occur We can never have a perfect understanding because some people will deny you know not everybody will report But to the degree that we can look at national samples and you know on average how often does this occur in a national sample and then how often what is the rate of occurrence in other subgroups so you know is the rate of sexual abuse higher for example from a prevalence perspective in some marginalized individuals Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct When you look at who reports that theyve been sexually abused is it reported more often by individuals who are members who are women versus men Is it reported you know more often or found to have occurred more often for example in a group of individuals who are cognitively or intellectually disabled MS POMERANTZ Ms Durocher can we pull up Government Exhibit please Can we turn to page Rocchio we looked at this table before Can you please explain what if anything does the table tell you about particular vulnerabilities the particular vulnerabilities in particular are most relevant to the first stage of the grooming model which is the victim-selection model in terms of looking at who are the individuals that offenders choose to abuse or who end up abusing And again I think its important to bear in mind that this whole list was initially established from literature looking at what offenders have told us they look for as well as what kinds of prevalence rates have occurred in certain populations And then these in that top section of victim selection are the factors vulnerability factors that there has been statistically significant agreement by professionals factor into victim selection when you say the top section youre referring to the what part of the table are you referring to Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct sorry Im referring to the list of behaviors specifically that are under the category entitled Victim Selection you MS POMERANTZ Can we turn to page directing your attention to the table on page what does this table show and how does that impact your view on vulnerabilities this table shows again specific behaviors that theres widespread agreement in this particular group of professionals that are relevant to a particular stage of the grooming process And again these are also behaviors that have been commonly and repeatedly found to exist in the scientific literature as being associated with the grooming process how does the information on this table compare to the table we were just looking at are similar types of behaviors that can be done in the service of building a relationship of trust and attachment and in and have been found to be utilized by offenders But there was not as much agreement among the professionals that these specific behaviors about the relevance of these specific behaviors and/or the stage to which they were part of MS POMERANTZ Thank you Ms Durocher we can pull that down Rocchio the defense has stated that your opinion that Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct individuals with particular vulnerabilities are often targeted by sexual abuse is a commonly accepted bit of clinical lore derived from the frequent observation of highly vulnerable children among those children who allege sexual abuse but it is not based on empirical data regarding the likelihood of abuse among children with varying degrees of vulnerability Whats your response to that believe thats a false statement you explain I just indicated there are a variety of ways that we can look at whether or not individuals with particular vulnerabilities are targeted and/or at higher risk for being sexually abused We can look at the prevalence data the rates in which these behaviors occur You can look at both allegations as well as crimes that are reported You can look at what offenders tell us There has been extensive interviewing thats been done and studies that have been done with offenders about what they look for And again this would not just be offenders of childhood sexual abuse but you know there have been studies done with pimps for example on what they look for So in a variety of forms of victimization So there are multiple data sources that exist in addition to clinical experience that can substantiate this phenomenon does what youve observed in your review of the Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct literature compare to your clinical practice and your forensic practice with respect to the question of individuals with particular vulnerabilities being at higher risk of childhood sexual abuse highly consistent defense has argued that a victims prior sexual behavior is relevant to the concept of grooming Whats your reaction to that what way I mean Ive talked about certainly their experiences of victimization can make them more vulnerable but Im not sure what you mean whether a person whether or not a person has had sexual experience putting aside prior victimization make them more or less vulnerable to being groomed not aware of any literature on that issue nor do I even understand how that would theoretically make sense To the extent that youre suggesting that somebody who has been sexually active in the past can or cannot be groomed Im not even theoretically I dont understand why that would be the case But no certainly I dont believe that there is any literature that would support that statement THE COURT So to the extent youve seen in your practice and studies the impact of prior sexual conduct on the phenomenon of grooming you understand it to potentially Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct increase the likelihood of grooming or susceptibility to grooming Do I have that right THE WITNESS No Im sorry What increases susceptibility to grooming would be prior victimization I believe Im being asked here now about consensual sexual activity And Im not aware of any known or studied relationship between consensual sexual activity and grooming THE COURT Right So to the extent prior sexual conduct of any kind that youre aware of impacts grooming its that prior victim prior victimization prior subjecting to sexual abuse increases the likelihood of one being susceptible to grooming tactics THE WITNESS Can increase the likelihood of being sexually abused later not necessarily susceptibility to grooming per se but we know that it increases the likelihood of subsequent victimization We also know that one of the effects of victimization in and of itself can be an increase in risky behavior And for adolescents in particular that risky behavior can often take the form of risky sexual behavior So I think that to the extent that there might be a relationship between sexual abuse and grooming and sexual behavior its actually the inverse of what youve talked about which is you might see a lot of high-risk sexual behavior being engaged in in someone who has been previously Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct groomed and victimized THE COURT So given that theres a history of prior sexual abuse would that be relevant is that relevant for you to understanding whether grooming occurred THE WITNESS Not necessarily because when Im looking at whether or not grooming occurred and when the literature is looking about whether or not grooming occurred theyre going to look at the specific circumstances associated with whatever it is youre looking at Its relevant in that I know that prior victimization could increase vulnerability but just because someone is THE COURT Well vulnerability to what THE WITNESS Vulnerability to subsequent sexual abuse But just because somebody is more vulnerable that can provide me with some information but its not going to factor into my specific conclusions around the facts say in a forensic setting if Im being asked Did grooming occur here Im going to take into account prior victimization and vulnerability But that prior victimization and vulnerability isnt going to tell me whether or not it happened here THE COURT I guess I just want to understand that piece The point you made about prior sexual abuse can lead to certain kinds of behaviors is there anything in that analysis that would impact how one understands whether grooming tactics would be successful or whether the individual might be Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct susceptible or not to grooming THE WITNESS To the degree that someone is engaging in risky sexual behavior that could they could end up then being in circumstances where theyre more vulnerable to being targeted by offenders It could be in that way THE COURT No other way that you can think of or have seen in the literature THE WITNESS No not that Im aware of right now THE COURT All right Thank you BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio the defense has referred to a theory of grooming by proxy Have you heard of that term in scientific or clinical literature I have not there anything about what youre testifying about here today that says grooming can only be done for the benefit of the person doing the grooming theres not is your opinion based on THE COURT And just to clarify the opinion so that we not have a fight about terminology the opinion is that the presence of another individual can facilitate the sexual abuse of minors Is that the opinion THE WITNESS What what I was asked was whether or not theres anything that in what Ive testified about the Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct tactics and strategies of the grooming process that would preclude or require that those strategies be utilized for the sexual gratification of the person whos doing the grooming as opposed to a third party And my answer to that question is no THE COURT OK So you dont have an opinion on whether the presence let me just get the language the presence of a third of another individual can facilitate sexual abuse of minors THE WITNESS To the extent that we know that offenders do put themselves in situations where theyre more likely to be viewed as trustworthy surrounding themselves with individuals who a child or an intended victim might trust is going to increase the childs trust perhaps THE COURT Is there any literature that you can point to that goes from that sort of broad statement about trustworthiness to the inclusion of a third individual in order to build that trust any literature that you can point to that suggests that THE WITNESS The literature that just points to more generally perpetrators putting themselves in environments where they have a wider array of access or the grooming of institutions and other individuals for the purpose of getting greater access to the child THE COURT So well let me ask it this way In your Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct experience what is the frequency with which not in the institutional setting but in your experience in which the presence of another individual helps create a single individual helped create that trustworthiness that facilitated the abuse THE WITNESS Im not aware of a particular study that would investigate that specific situation THE COURT Or any discussion of that phenomenon in the literature specifically not more broadly THE WITNESS Specifically the use of a single individual unless youre talking about a co-offender I mean there is some literature obviously on co-offenders Theres literature that looks at for example in the pimping and trafficking literature its very common for individuals to engage in group activity But specifically looking at child sexual abuse and the presence of a single other adult Im not aware of particular studies about that exact point THE COURT And how about in your clinical and forensic experience THE WITNESS Certainly in my clinical and forensic experience I have definitely seen that THE COURT With what frequency THE WITNESS A high degree because oftentimes offenders surround themselves with other people So Im thinking of a foren a Boy Scout case I did where in Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct particular the person I was evaluating talked about how he thought that the person who eventually abused him was a really good guy because there was another older person involved in the troop and they were best friends And so he really thought this other guy was really cool and that was how he you know came to kind of be introduced and involved in the relationship Theres a there was a in a clinical setting Ive certainly talked with individuals where you know Ive talked about that part of why they came to trust someone and initially started the relationship with them was because either they looked cool or they knew someone that they knew or they were introduced by a friend or a teacher So in those settings certainly Ive its something that happens THE COURT Does it surprise you then theres no discussion in the literature of that specific phenomenon THE WITNESS I think that its no because I think what Im talking about is specific ways in which individuals are kind of disarmed or come to trust others so within the literature the phenomenon of what kinds of things like can create an aura of trust and respectability that is certainly discussed in the literature But I think that the example youre asking me about is so highly specific I think it would fall under the category of a number of things that are discussed but Im not aware of it having been discussed that specifically Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct THE COURT So in a sense what the field the scientific field tell us is that there are scenarios that help create an aura of trust and respectability and then one could using some common sense figure out what specific examples might fall within that THE WITNESS Sure Or there is literature to say you know where for example do we find that perpetrators access victims And so we know that they end up in leadership roles in various kinds of child organizations counselors schools Boy Scouts church So THE COURT But those phenomena are discussed in the literature THE WITNESS Those phenomena are discussed in the literature THE COURT OK Thank you Go ahead MS POMERANTZ Thank you been talking about whether grooming only be done for the benefit of the person doing the grooming What if anything in scientific literature addresses the concept of grooming not having to be done for the benefit of the person doing the grooming the article that we had spoken about earlier looking at dynamics of coercive control which refer to some of the strategies and dynamics that commonly occur in the context of grooming we can see that coercive control which are Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct describing the same kinds of strategies and tactics as grooming refers to happens in a variety of other settings So in the pimp-and-sex-worker relationship we know for example that the grooming strategies are happening and typically a pimp is working not for their own necessarily sexual gratification but to provide to procure and provide for the sexual gratification of another for example THE COURT And thats how its discussed in the field and in the literature that to the extent that trauma bonding has been studied in the pimp-sex worker context it is plainly about at least largely about the coercive techniques being used to facilitate sexual conduct with a third party THE WITNESS Exactly THE COURT And again nothing like that in the grooming child sexual abuse context beyond sort of the institutional authority positions that youve discussed THE WITNESS There have been studies though that have looked at specifically comparing the behaviors associated with grooming for the purposes of sexual abuse and those being the same behaviors techniques and strategies as utilized by the pimps So to the extent that what were talking about are groups of behaviors theyre the same behaviors so theyre being youre describing behavior that doesnt depend on whose sexual gratification the behaviors are being done in service of Youre talking about principles of coercion and Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct manipulation to get somebody to do anything that you want them to do for your benefit or for someone elses And thats what the scientific literature talks about that the grooming is really a pattern of coercive control manipulative behavior strategies and techniques that are done to increase ones ability to coerce another THE COURT Thank you MS POMERANTZ Dr Rocchio switching gears THE COURT Lets actually break before we switch gears to extend the metaphor Well take a ten-minute comfort break MS POMERANTZ Thank you your Honor Recess THE COURT All right Ms Pomerantz you may proceed And Dr Rocchio you can take your mask off THE WITNESS Thank you your Honor BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio does the relationship of trust and attachment between a victim and a perpetrator impact disclosure so a couple ways First in a relationship of trust and attachment between a victim and a perpetrator that can and has been established to cause a great deal of confusion on the part of the victim about what is and is not abusive So to the Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct extent that someone doesnt recognize that whats happening to them or doesnt cognitively label it as abuse obviously thats not something that can be reported But then of course the relationship itself also functions to make disclosure less likely because either the individual has been made in the course of the relationship to feel somewhat responsible they might feel shame or they may blame themselves or to the extent that theyve come to care for the person whos harming them they may be afraid of getting that individual in trouble or to the extent that the relationship as a whole clearly has positive elements to it apart from and distinct from the abusive elements they may its fulfilling some need on the part of the victim they may be fearful of losing those pieces on your experience research and training are you familiar with delayed disclosure am is delayed disclosure disclosure is a term thats used in the literature to refer to telling about an experience of well in this case sexual assault at some point after the event has occurred disclosure of childhood sexual abuse depend on the victims age there have been a number of studies that have looked at Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct what are some of the predictors of delayed disclosure and to the studies that have been done that have looked at different age groups have found that those ages to that is adolescents are much more likely to have a delayed disclosure as opposed to adults So rates of disclosure kind of match up closer to the time of event as somebody ages in terms of adolescents can you explain how common disclosure is and why the rates of delays disclosure have been studied a lot in various populations And so we know most of the studies show that the majority of victims of childhood sexual abuse who are abused during adolescence dont disclose until sometime later typically in adulthood And there are other factors that are associated with delayed disclosure in adolescents but in terms of age that would be one you explain why disclosure of childhood sexual abuse is not common among adolescents of it has to do with the developmental life stage of an adolescent individually I mean they we know that even if an adolescent does tell for example anyone theyre likely most likely to tell a peer Adolescents tend not to like to talk to adults Also adolescents often like to think of themselves as older and more competent To the extent that they are involved in a sexually abusive relationship with an older person they Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct may not believe that relationship to be abusive They may believe that the two of them are in love They may have been deliberately misled to believe that it is somehow a love a love relationship So they they dont identify it or label it as abuse Also theres as with any form of sexual abuse sexual assault in childhood or otherwise theres a great deal of shame and stigma and adolescents are again developmentally as a group notoriously sensitive to fear of being judged And then finally they dont want to get in trouble They dont want their freedom restricted There are you know studies that have been done talking to teenagers or adults about why they did or didnt disclose at various points in time have identified all of these as factors among others on your experience research and training how do people who have experienced childhood sexual abuse talk about or disclose the abuse this is something thats really been studied in terms of the literature looking at how and why do people disclose or not disclose And one of the consistent findings is that disclosure most often takes place to appear not for an adolescent to appear and for adults to friends not to formal agencies Im sorry Can you repeat the question Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct The question was when based on your experience research and training how do people who have experienced childhood sexual abuse talk about or disclose the abuse A.-1180.3Basically that is something that occurs in the context of a relationship and the disclosure comes out kind of over time in the context of that relationship doctors contribute to how much a person discloses about the sexual abuse they experienced will depend on the level of safety that they feel in the relationship That will also depend on the response that theyre getting from the person that theyre making beginning to make the initial disclosure to So for example research thats been done on barriers to disclosure as well as research thats been done to train and teach people on how to respond when receiving the disclosure has found you know things that imply any sort of blame shame minimization or negative response will certainly shut down the process of disclosure quite and think you know to the extent that youre responding empathically to the extent that youre listening and attending to these to the extent that that disclosure is happening in the context of a relationship of trust and safety then the disclosure is more likely to evolve over time if at all does memory play a role in disclosure when were talking about child sexual abuse when were Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct talking about any event there are general principles of memory and those would apply to memory general well-accepted principles of memory that would apply to experiences of sexual abuse as well So to the extent that we know everybody pays attention to and attaches significance to some aspects of an event more so than others what a sexual abuse survivor discloses and the pieces of the story that they or their experiences Im sorry that they remember are going to be those things that were central details They are going to have relatively good memory most of the time for the gist of the event and for the details that they attended to and were most significant to them But their memory for peripheral details we know can fade away and weaken or change with time just mentioned peripheral details What do you mean by that in the memory literature again there is often a distinction made between what are considered to be central details and peripheral details So the central details are subjectively defined as whatever it is an individual is paying attention to and attaching significance to at the time of an event And those are the details that get encoded in memory and are then later available for retrieval at the time of recall you give an example Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct If were talking about child sexual abuse someone may have attended to the and known full well that they were being sexually abused and they may have very clear memory of certain sounds certain smells breath certain physical sensations Alternatively someone who is dissociating and trying very hard not to not think and not attend to whats happening to them they may have very vivid details of the swirls on the ceiling or the pattern on the wallpaper Rocchio how do the topics of memory that you just testified about fit into your expertise as a psychologist again these general principles of memory are part of what Ive been trained in throughout my career and as a trauma psychologist in particular certainly how individuals talk about their experiences how they remember whats happened to them and what is typical in terms of memory Again what are the general principles about memory is absolutely part of the literature and the research within the field of trauma psychology as well as psychology generally more broadly your education did you learn about delayed disclosure taught we learned certainly about how people tell their stories And certainly when I was trained in assessment techniques for example in my training and I was taught about how to ask about abuse experiences I was also told you know be mindful that if someone answers your questions this may be Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct the first time theyve ever talked about it Similarly through trainings and readings and in my graduate program also being taught that when you make an assessment its really important when someone is talking about their experiences to inquire of them what their experiences were like with disclosure because that can be so impactful your clinical practice have you treated and evaluated patients who did not disclose sexual abuse they experienced as children but disclosed such abuse later you explain as I mentioned when I do an assessment and Im talking with people about experiences of child sexual abuse one of the common and important questions I will ask is and at the time that this was happening or at some point later did you share your experiences with anyone did you tell anyone And as I said in terms of a in a clinical setting that information is very important We know that the responses of the person that they told have significant impact on the adverse potentially adverse outcomes Also of course we know that if people dont tell then that also means they likely didnt get medical care or assistance at the time of the event And that also is highly relevant So I see that a lot in my clinical practice And Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct often Ive had individuals who as you know older adults say to me this is the first time Ive ever told anyone Ive never told anyone that this happened common is delayed disclosure in the patients you treat and evaluate in connection with your clinical practice very common The majority of the patients that I work with whove whove experienced childhood sexual abuse like all victims of child sexual abuse the abuses a majority that has occur most likely will occur in the context of a relationship And we know that the closer the relationship between the victim and the perpetrator the more delayed the disclosure is So I would say that its its certainly not rare but its not common necessarily that I am always the first person that the individual has told but its definitely more common than not that they did not tell someone at the time that it was occurring that they told at some point significantly later in time patients have disclosed that they experienced childhood sexual abuse to you for the first time were your patients adults or children would say that when theyre making an initial disclosure for the first time they have been adults although when I was working in an inpatient setting at times I I certainly worked with adolescents who had made disclosure while they were still Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct kids around the time so not as much delayed Q.-1180.3Approximately what percentage of the patients you treated and assessed disclosed that they experienced childhood sexual abuse at the time of the abuse very very small number I I can probably count on one hand the number of patients in my private practice who said that they told right away With younger children in particular we also know that its more likely with very young children not so much that theyre just going to spontaneously go to someone and tell them but thats its going to be accidentally discovered or someone else finds out about it and then inquires and thats how that information comes out But again we know that most victims of childhood sexual abuse dont end up disclosing until some significant point in time after the event and thats consistent with what Ive experienced in my practice just mentioned very young children What are you referring to know that delayed disclosure happens over time But we also know that the younger the child the more likely it is that the disclosure or the discovery of the abuse happens accidentally you aware of other psychologists treating and evaluate patients who have delay disclosing childhood sexual abuse Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct A.-1180.3Through the clinical literature through the training Again if either Im conducting training and Im teaching others or Im participating in the training thats talking about what are some of the common themes and issues and things that you need to deal with in a psychotherapy and clinical and assessment context well often talk about disclosure and in particular things like we also know that so many individuals of child sexual abuse but also of rape and sexual assault of all kinds dont necessarily label their experiences as such So when Im teaching or ways that Ive been taught and trained is to use behavioral descriptors of what Im asking about So for example there have been numerous studies that say you know if you ask a group of individuals say college students have you ever had an experience where someone physically forced you to engage in sexual activity against your will theyll you know a certain percentage of them will say yes And then if you follow you and say have you ever been raped no So you have to use behavioral descriptors because people for a variety of reasons dont necessarily label their experiences as abuse And thats also true with varying kinds of violence as well Have you been abused versus have these behaviors happened to you your clinical experience regarding disclosure consistent or inconsistent with that of other psychologists who treat and Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct evaluate patients who have delayed disclosing childhood sexual abuse consistent with my peers and reports that Ive read in the clinical literature yes your forensic practice have you dealt with disclosure-related issues have you explain A.-1180.3Disclosure-related issues in a forensic setting can come up particularly for example when there are issues related to the statute of limitations So in a recent case I was asked to evaluate the time at which an individual reasonably came to be aware of a connection between their present difficulties or potential connection between their present difficulties and the alleged abuse And part of that case involved my looking at you know were there any reports made about the abuse at the time because Im working with an adult whos alleging something during childhood and if so to whom and under what circumstances And you know even if the reports werent made at the time of the abuse for example did this person talk about their experiences with their therapist or when they were hospitalized for substance abuse what did they have to say So Im looking at what they disclosed how they disclosed it Im obviously in a forensic setting comparing that to what theyre telling me now and with what the fact Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct pattern is from other data sources common is it for you to consider disclosure-related issues in your forensic practice do the disclosure-related behaviors youve seen in your forensic practice compare to those youve seen in your clinical practice similar Very very similar your opinions on disclosure based in part on your review of the scientific literature A.-1180.3Scientific and clinical literature yes you describe at a high level the literature upon which your opinion is based theres different ways that the literature has looked at the issue of disclosure I spoke earlier about prevalence rates where youre asking people often in anonymous surveys but sometimes in interview settings but in research studies about a variety of experiences And typically in those studies you will ask people are asked about their experiences with rape sexual assault childhood sexual abuse And so you can get some idea of what percentage of people in various studies across time report particular events in their lives So you get an estimate of prevalence You can compare that to look at disclosure in two different ways You can look for example if youre talking Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct about disclosure to formal agencies you can then compare that with uniform crime reports and look at the statistics for what rate what percentage what is the prevalence of these particular crimes being reported to through through the legal system Also when youre doing the interviews you can look at asking individuals and did you disclose and if so to whom So there are lots of different studies that can look at disclosure Theres also research thats been done looking at again how people tell and you know closer in time not just with adults looking back retrospectively but times when theres been someone has been known to have been abused and there have been studies that have been done looking at do they tell or not I referred earlier to the study of very young children who had presented with sexually transmitted diseases for example who were later asked about their experiences and you can look at in real time studies of what they say and to whom THE COURT Ms Pomerantz lets move to the next opinion BY MS POMERANTZ Rocchio does childhood sexual abuse create higher risks for victims it does Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct you please explain theres about been a lot of literature looking at what are some of the adverse outcomes in populations of individuals who have been sexually abused among other adverse childhood events So theres really two primary bodies of literature One is the general well-established literature on adverse childhood events that of which childhood sexual abuse is one that has documented that individuals who have had higher numbers of adverse events that have occurred to them during childhood are at much higher risk of a whole range of health difficulties gastrointestinal difficulties heart problems all kinds of health-related issues as well as psychological and psychiatric difficulties in particular depression anxiety post-traumatic stress disorder So theres that body of literature And then there have been numerous studies that have looked more specifically at and narrowly at populations of individuals who have been sexually abused or who have reported to have been sexually abused And then they have looked over time and found that individuals who have reported histories of childhood sexual abuse have both much higher frequencies of various psychiatric illnesses and difficulties as well as higher severity of symptoms And then thirdly the post-traumatic stress disorder literature has found that when individuals have experienced a Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Direct traumatic event which is part of the criteria for later developing post-traumatic stress disorder those who experienced childhood sexual abuse and sexual abuse generally as compared to those who have experienced other types of traumatic events are at higher risk for developing post-traumatic stress disorder there empirical data to support your views about the prevalence of adverse effects of childhood sexual abuse Theres a significant body of literature you explain briefly The literature I just talked about the adverse childhood-events literature as well as the scientific study of consequences and sequelae of childhood sexual abuse you review articles and studies about the adverse effects of childhood sexual abuse what sorts of things are you looking for to determine the quality of the studies and articles that youre relying on like is it appearing in a peer-reviewed journal how large was the sample have the findings been replicated over time have they been replicated in various studies You want to know is this something that is generally accepted within the scientific community as well as within the profession And to the extent that those concepts then are recurring in the literature and the studies are continuing to advance our understanding and knowledge and finding similar Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross kinds of things over time and across populations THE COURT Ms Pomerantz I have what I need on this opinion which I think is the last MS POMERANTZ Thats right your Honor If I may just have a moment to consult with my colleagues THE COURT You may MS POMERANTZ Thank you Counsel confer MS POMERANTZ Thank you your Honor Nothing further from the government THE COURT All right Thank you Mr Pagliuca MR PAGLIUCA May I inquire your Honor THE COURT You may MR PAGLIUCA Thank you CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PAGLIUCA Rocchio I just want to start with some process here I show that you met with the government times in the last year or so Is that correct youre including telephone contacts perhaps Im not sure how many times weve spoken Does that sound about right could be A number of those were around scheduling and things so sure Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross not sure though you reviewed any of the notes taken by the government during your interviews I have not you take any notes during any of your interviews on topics that I wanted to go and pursue like subject headings of areas that they wanted me to speak about and educate the Court about did you record those topics in some sort of file I did not you have those notes I do not did you do with those notes the time that we were talking I wrote like grooming as a subject matter and then when I went and researched the literature I threw those notes away So is that your practice to take notes and then throw them away depends on the purpose of the note If the note is just a reminder to me theres no reason for me to keep it do you have a file in connection with your retention in this case do do you have in your file Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross have a copy of the agreement my agreement with the government my engagement agreement I have a copy of the time spent the date and the time spent and what activity I engaged in I have copies of various filings that the government has provided me with relevant to this hearing today did you review that file in anticipation of testifying here today can MR PAGLIUCA Your Honor Im going to ask for production of that file at this point please THE COURT Ms Pomerantz MS POMERANTZ Your Honor may I just have one moment please THE COURT You may Counsel confer MS POMERANTZ Your Honor the government has produced the materials that were in the possession of the government the notes that the government had taken in connection with its meetings and phone calls with Dr Rocchio That is what we are required to produce under the Jencks Act And I would note your Honor that I just I dont have in terms of what the defense counsel is requesting as I noted I would just it is about the Jencks Act and we have produced the materials that are in the governments possession including the notes and have indicated what materials we Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross provided to Dr Rocchio MR PAGLIUCA Do you need a response from me your Honor THE COURT Go ahead MR PAGLIUCA Well your Honor I understand Jencks Act production but this is a separate issue She relied on this in preparation for her testimony today and I believe that under Rule I am allowed to examine whatever she relied on in anticipation and preparation for her testimony here today This would be part of the bases for her opinion your Honor THE COURT Well I dont know if it is Notes that have a subject heading grooming for example that she threw away which are not in the file are not a bases for her opinion So I dont know that the whole file is subject to that theory The contract between her and the government is not a basis for opinion but youve asked for that since shes included that in the file MR PAGLIUCA I have that your Honor THE COURT Right But you see the point MR PAGLIUCA I understand But I dont know what is in her file is my point THE COURT Right Well so then the question I think is What is in your file that forms the basis for your opinion That will get us to where we need to get Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross BY MR PAGLIUCA is it in your file that forms the basis of your opinion nothing in my file that forms the basis of my opinion Whats in my file are for example the motion for todays hearing a copy of the disclosure for some of the witnesses a redacted copy of those sorts of things but nothing from which Im basing my opinion on today You mentioned a contract Youre billing the government at a rate of an hour Is that correct is correct your initial government contract is from Is that right to how much have you been paid up to today A.-1180.3Nothing so you need to complete your contract before you receive your is that right Thats not my understanding I need to prepare an invoice and provide it to the government And I havent had a chance to do that yet And do you know what your final invoice will look like in terms of hours spent up till today dont at this point no many hours have you spent up till today Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross havent tabulated them I I could make an estimate if you like but I dont know for sure About hours And do you keep time records of what you do do MR PAGLIUCA Id ask for production of those time records your Honor It doesnt have to be today THE COURT On what grounds MR PAGLIUCA Well your Honor it goes to the motive and bias of the witness as a financial gain through this contract THE COURT Its a perfectly acceptable question in front of the jury But whats your entitlement to the time records MR PAGLIUCA So we know how much time shes spent on this and what her anticipated compensation is THE COURT Im just asking I mean this sounds like broad-reaching discovery Under what rule or other authority are you entitled to that MR PAGLIUCA I believe your Honor Im entitled to this under Brady and Giglio because this is motive and bias Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross for testimony THE COURT You can submit authority on that I mean certainly appropriate grounds for cross Im not sure absent some specific motion for discovery that Ive ever seen expert time records turned over MR PAGLIUCA Understood your Honor BY MR PAGLIUCA Rocchio Id like to talk to you about some of the terms that youve been using here today The first one I want to ask you about is the definition of child Do you recall when you discussed this case with the government on April 9th of this year that you defined child for the government as someone under the age of consent Do you recall that dont specifically recall that no Im sorry that a definition of child someone under the age of consent would I would define child as someone under the age of Im looking at page of the interview notes produced in connection with your interview on April THE COURT Do you have a MR PAGLIUCA I do your Honor Im at page Thats the beginning of this interview April And if we go to well thats the page of that interview The top of the page Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross you recall discussing this with Ms Comey Ms Moe Ms Pomerantz Mr Rohrbach and telling them that child is anyone below the age of consent Do you recall that dont have anything on the screen in front of me so I Im not sure what youre referring to just asking if you recall that at this point Sorry I dont Do you have any reason to believe that any of those AUSAs would take that down incorrectly not sure of the context under which it was taken I think you know for I havent reviewed it I didnt have a chance to correct it I I really have no idea Also you used the term sexual abuse and thats nonconsensual sexual touch Is that correct is one of the definitions yes It doesnt have to be is that the definition that you gave the government in April of do you recall dont recall specifically what I said during the phone call in April no you recall defining do you define nonconsensual as when someone says no or the person is too intoxicated to give consent or the person is below the age of consent is that a definition of nonconsensual are examples of nonconsensual Its not an Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross exhaustive definition And when you say below the age of consent you havent defined that Correct in what youre reading to me know that the age of consent varies from state to state and country to country correct A.-1180.3Correct so when youre talking about below the age of consent youre talking about a MS POMERANTZ Objection your Honor THE COURT Overruled Overruled Go ahead MR PAGLIUCA Thank you your Honor youre talking about below the age of consent youre talking about whatever the age is in the particular jurisdiction for someone to be able to consent to sexual contact correct one example yes You also talked about trauma which I understand you define as exposure by either directly experiencing or witnessing serious bodily injury death or sexual violation Is that correct violence I believe Thats the definition in the DSM-V criterion of trauma thats the definition youve been using here today in Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross connection with your testimony correct one of the definitions Ive been using here today in connection with my testimony yes you talk about trauma thats the definition youve been using correct is a continuum so that is one of the definitions of trauma but other things have been found to be traumatic in individuals experiences that do not necessarily rise to the level of criterion A in PTSD For example theres a whole nother section in the DSM called Other Stressor and Trauma Disorders that could refer to other traumatic events that dont fit that specific definition but childhood sexual abuse is commonly understood to fall under the definition of sexual violence So to that degree yes Youve described that youre a clinical psychologist and that is someone who treats clients for presenting psychological issues correct part of what I do yes And the job of a clinical psychologist is to assess the client treat the client with the expectation proving improving that person correct a treatment capacity yes But I do a lot of things as a clinical psychologist in addition to that I know youve described this but I want to make sure were all on the same page that your job as a clinical Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross psychologist is to not independently investigate what the client may or may not be telling you correct a treatment setting for the patients that Im treating yes thats correct dont go out and talk to witnesses or try to prove or disprove whatever your client is telling you in the treatment setting correct A.-1180.3Correct wouldnt be appropriate for you to do that correct A.-1180.3Correct generally youre accepting what the client is telling you as the presenting problem and then you are trying to treat that presenting problem during the course of your therapy correct want you talked a bit about your job as a forensic psychologist How many times have you testified as a forensic psychologist a courtroom or also in depositions Lets start with courtroom I think you said twice Correct one of those was a criminal case where you testified on behalf of the defendant is that right Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross then the other one there was no transcript of is that correct is correct either of those cases well let me put it the other way In neither of those cases were you qualified as an expert on grooming correct A.-1180.3Grooming is part of the dynamic well established to be under the rubric of interpersonal violence so it would fall into the category in which I was declared an expert wasnt my question My question was in neither of those cases were you qualified as an expert in the subject the specific subject of grooming correct A.-1180.3Correct THE COURT Did you testify about grooming in those instances THE WITNESS I testified about grooming in one of those and I testified about coercive control and dynamics in a relationship in another how many times have you been actually deposed in your role as a forensic psychologist believe four Im not positive but around that in your capacity as a forensic psychologist youve testified maybe six times is that right A.-1180.3Correct Now as a forensic psychologist you are typically Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross hired by a party in the litigation Correct in a criminal matter yes so that would either be the defendant or the prosecutor right is a party in the litigation correct And in a civil case youre going to be either hired by the plaintiff or the defendants lawyer correct A.-1180.3Correct they dont tell you to go out and just do an independent investigation on your own and then report back to them whoever hires you True Im asked to do an independent investigation as it pertains to the specific question Im being asked to answer in the course of my evaluation I understand that But whoever hires you gives you material to review and then asks you a specific question based on the material that that party has given you correct necessarily no you ever had a lawyer who hired you just say go out and do whatever you want to do bill me however much you want to bill me and then tell me what your findings are Has that ever happened in your career that specific way no Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio Cross Q.-1180.3"Forensic psychology refers to the professional practice by any psychologist when applying psychology to the law to assist to address legal matters Is that the definition forensic and therapeutic roles are very different correct they are a therapeutic role typically is not going to involve a forensic component correct A.-1180.3Correct that would be somewhat of a boundary violation correct would be a dual role Do you consider yourself to be in a forensic capacity here today yes And so subject to the forensic guidelines by the APA correct correct April 23rd the government sent a letter outlining what the government said were your opinions in this matter Did you review that letter before the government sent it reviewed that letter Im not sure at what stage in the process I believe so though yes Continued on next page Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross BY MR PAGLIUCA want to talk a little bit about some of the opinions that are in your letter from the government of April 23rd So I think the first opinion that I have identified relates to individuals with particular vulnerabilities are often targeted by perpetrators of sexual abuse Do you recall that do lets identify some of the categories of people that have particular vulnerabilities So that could include economically and disadvantaged people right would include people who dont have any family at all correct could sure could include people who have one parent correct could include people who have two parents but one of them is abusive right could include people who have cognitive disabilities correct could include people who have emotional disabilities Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross correct A.-1180.3Depending on the type of emotional disability I would have to look at the literature but it could about a personality disorder sorry so what is the question that be somebody who is in this vulnerable population not sure whether theres been specific research on personality disorder and risk of victimization so I couldnt speak to that about people who have unstable lives depending on the specific nature of the instability with low self-esteem would that fall under the category of particular vulnerabilities have been spoken about in the literature Again Im not sure about that particular construct and the degree to which its been studied who abuse drugs and alcohol are they in a vulnerable position A.-1180.3Research in child and sexual abuse has looked more at the parental use of drugs and alcohol I would have to go back to the science to look at an individuals personal use of drugs and alcohol as to whether that specifically is or is not found to be a risk factor who have been previously sexually assaulted are Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross they in the particularly vulnerable category at much higher risk for revictimization yes thats a yes not like a list I can go to to say these are all vulnerable people who are more likely to be sexually abused A.-1180.3Actually there are descriptions of lists of vulnerable populations in the scientific literature theyre not necessarily all the same correct dont understand THE COURT I dont understand your question BY MR PAGLIUCA I go to the DSM for example and I try to look up populations of people with particular vulnerabilities Im not going to find a list that the American Psychological Association has come up with to say that these are people with particular vulnerabilities correct are a number of problems with that question I cant answer it you have a list a definitive list of the vulnerable population the extent that I have reviewed I havent written it down To the extent that I have knowledge and am informed by my education background skills and training Im aware of the vulnerable populations that have been consistently identified Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross in the literature to be at higher risk for sexual abuse vulnerable populations are at higher risk for many things correct A.-1180.3Depending on what youre talking about sure vulnerable population A.-1180.3Vulnerability implies higher risk yes Q.-1180.3Vulnerable populations could be at higher risk for being physically assaulted correct But the research has differentially looked at risk for for example sexual victimization versus other kinds of victimization Q.-1180.3Vulnerable populations can be at higher risk for dropping out of school right A.-1180.3Certain ones sure Q.-1180.3Vulnerable populations can be at higher risk for substance abuse yes Q.-1180.3Vulnerable populations can be at higher risk for health issues right being in a vulnerable population means basically that youre at a higher risk for something bad happening to you in the future correct Because youre using the term more generally than what I was trying to say in my opinion So Im looking at the Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross literature around which specific vulnerabilities have been found to be associated with which particular outcomes or adverse outcomes So its not that every single vulnerability has been found to increase vulnerability for every potential outcome Theres a relationship between particular types of vulnerability and particular types of outcome also true that there can be more than one vulnerability in a human being course yes can be a victim of sexual abuse and have other vulnerability factors correct conversely somebody can have vulnerability factors and then become a victim of sexual abuse correct want to turn now to some of your questions about grooming okay some of your opinions about grooming What is your definition of grooming definition thats commonly used in the literature is didnt ask that question THE COURT You may answer Go ahead THE WITNESS The term grooming refers to a set of deceptive strategies that are utilized by an individual to establish a relationship of coercion and control for the purposes of subsequent sexual exploitation and sexual abuse Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross is that your definition my understanding of the definitions that have been talked about in the literature I mean I havent written and published a specific set definition Its a common definition and the one Im using in my testimony yes was going to ask you that question You have not published anything specifically about grooming correct A.-1180.3Specifically about grooming no But I have certainly published and made reference to grooming you have not done any metadata studies on your own to collect data about grooming correct A.-1180.3Correct Q.-1180.3Grooming can consist of the actions that youre talking about can consist of I think we saw a list of things on it as part of your testimony is that right were specific behaviors that had been identified in the literature as potentially being part of the grooming process yes I think we were talking about things like taking an interest in another human being could be considered grooming in and of itself It would depend on the pattern of behavior and the context in which its occurring talk about that for a second Because what youre saying is it depends on the groomers intent in doing a specific act is what in your view makes it grooming or not Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross grooming is that correct it grooming the tactics youre referring to are a series of manipulative strategies And to the extent that those manipulative strategies are being used to increase the likelihood of sexual exploitation and sexual abuse then we would describe it as sexual grooming me ask you a question In order for something to become grooming you are looking at the intent of the groomer relative to the act correct the intent and the function of the behavior relative to the act has always been part of the definition of grooming yes the answer to my question is yes is that right absent the intent to sexually abuse someone there are a myriad of actions that one could consider grooming actions themselves are in the function of the establishment of a relationship of trust and attachment or trauma bonding So to the extent that those behaviors build a relationship then yes they could be in another context normative behaviors normative behaviors being normal behaviors right could be for example a parent wants to take an interest in their child correct Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross a parent wants to provide for their child correct a parent wants their child to go to school correct A.-1180.3Usually yes if a parent can afford for school or after-school activities the parent wants to provide for those activities correct parents yes lets call them good parents right good parents want their children to eat right parents want to buy their children appropriate presents correct parents want everything they can get for their children in a positive way correct parents want good outcomes for their kids yes of that would be considered grooming absent an intent to use that conduct to manipulate the child correct the grooming is about the coercion So to the extent that those behaviors are not being done in a coercive controlling context they would not be considered grooming correct you had mentors in your career Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross have those mentors grooming you for the purposes of sexual abuse no they could be grooming you for a job for example right A.-1180.3Mentoring is probably the word I would use but yes to your point at least the point I think youre making sure a positive thing if Im trying to groom someone to get ahead at work correct you had mentees have you taken an interest in them have you shown them special treatment because youre interested in their professional development thats not bad grooming is it wouldnt be grooming for the purpose of sexual exploitation or abuse no Q.-1180.3Similarly a teacher taking an interest in a student unless its for a sexual purpose wouldnt be grooming correct and/or coercive purpose Q.-1180.3Lawyers and judges have law clerks and they take an Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross interest in their professional development Thats not grooming is it the same would be true for grandparents right Taking a positive interest in your grandchildren taking them to the zoo buying them presents being there for them reading them books having them sit on your lap none of that would be considered grooming behavior unless its for an improper sexual purpose correct A.-1180.3Correct the only way that you can back into this grooming opinion is if you assume that the conduct thats being done is being done for an improper sexual purpose correct its not an assumption Its part of the definition So if Im looking at the dynamics of sexual abuse then of course Im looking at the behaviors that occurred in the context of that relationship it assumes that sexual abuse occurred correct The definition says that its for the purposes of sexual exploitation or abuse but that could be attempted It doesnt necessarily have to have occurred it assumes that its either attempted sexual abuse or actual sexual abuse or exploitation correct youre not there physically when any of these behaviors Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross that youre describing occur correct A.-1180.3Correct you are making an assumption that whatever you are hearing is accurate correct depends on the context whether or not Im making that assumption would make that assumption in order to label it grooming correct would for example in a forensic context I wouldnt say this is grooming or grooming happened I would say the individual described behaviors that are consistent with grooming for example for purposes of your testimony in this case when youre talking about what youre describing as grooming theres an underlying assumption that either theres an attempted sexual assault or exploitation or actual sexual assault or exploitation otherwise its not grooming correct wouldnt agree that its an assumption Its part of the definition So kind of going circular here THE COURT Yes So well move on There are fruitful arguments in cross-examination here I hope youll get to that soon MR PAGLIUCA Thank you your Honor BY MR PAGLIUCA Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross also talked about delayed disclosures correct the studies vary over when disclosure occurs for a number of reasons First the definition of disclosure the studies have disclosures to law enforcement right which is one definition of disclosure generally referred to in the literature as reporting then theres disclosure to a parent right A.-1180.3Correct theres disclosure to a friend right Q.-1180.3Disclosure to a teacher or other third person theres really no set term of what disclosure in this context means correct thats not correct also no set term on what delay means correct thats not correct some of the studies have one week as delay right some of the studies have one month as a delay right of the studies have one year as delay up to one year right Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross many of the studies specifically look at disclosure that is delayed as in not occurring at the time of the abuse And then look at what are those rates at various points in time so it could be a week later it could be a month later it could be a year later or five years later those are all variables in this idea of when disclosure occurs right are variables in the dynamics of the delay They are all examples of delayed disclosure at various points in time Because delayed disclosure refers to disclosure at some point after the incident thats being disclosed want to ask you some questions about memory now which is another area of your opinion You agree with me that memory is a complex topic do is generally regarded as the mental registration retention and recollection of past experiences sensations or thoughts would you agree with that would there are a number of parts of the brain that work in connection to form memories would you agree with that would you know what those parts are not an expert on neuroscience so I would not I could certainly go and review the literature and get back to Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross you but off the top of my head no would you agree with me that there are many things that can interfere with accurate memories not a neuropsychologist correct A.-1180.3Correct Q.-1180.3Neuropsychology is the study of human behavior as it relates to the normal and abnormal functioning of the central nervous system which includes the brain right A.-1180.3Correct familiar with the term confabulation am confabulation is a brain under certain circumstances will fill in gaps to make a whole picture correct individual will fill in gaps yes brain will do that right brain their mouths I mean semantics at this point But generally the way I understand confabulation is consistent with your description yes those may or may not be accurate pieces of information but the person actually believes them right you asking if thats possible Yes part of what confabulation is correct those gaps may or may not be accurate yes want to talk now about some of the exhibits that you Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross reviewed with the government MR PAGLIUCA If I could borrow Ms Durocher if that would be okay to display these THE COURT Its fine with me MR PAGLIUCA Exhibit BY MR PAGLIUCA is the article that you talked about Observing Coercive Control Beyond Intimate Partner Violence Examining the Perceptions of Professionals About Common Tactics Used in Victimization study involves participants do you see that in the abstract equals THE COURT Im sorry I couldnt hear you THE WITNESS Yes the sample size in this particular study is BY MR PAGLIUCA thats the total sample size here right sample of professionals that were involved in this particular survey yes these are unidentified professionals right not identified by name Theyre identified in other ways though theres no list of who the people are who are these Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross professionals that are giving these answers right not by name but certainly there are descriptors of who these individuals are if we go to those descriptors were just talking about a general description of the people that are involved in the study right not entirely sure Id have to look at the article but I believe there are descriptions about the basis for which they were identified as experts their level of education and training and the foundation for their publications and areas of expertise MR PAGLIUCA If we could go to Page of this exhibit you see where its talking about method there do lets start first with this paragraph This qualitative study took a phenomenological approach based on data collected as part of a statewide initiative to understand predatory alienation a new term created by an advocacy group to describe and this definition below it Do you see that do Q.-1180.3Phenomenological means the psychological study of subjective experience right Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross that is explaining the experience from the point of view of the subject right then they talk about why theyre doing this study and its to collect data to define a new term created by an advocacy group Do you see that sorry could you repeat the question method it says that this study is this phenomenological study its data collected as part of a statewide initiative to understand predatory alienation a new term created by an advocacy group Do you see that thats whats being undertaken here is this subjective study to determine this term created by an advocacy group in this study right wouldnt call it a subjective study Id call it a qualitative study But its investigating the phenomenon of predatory alienation which it looks like was a term created by an advocacy group you go down to the second part here it says All experts identified as cisgender females between early and Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross late and identified as white or Latina Do you see that do those are the experts right are some of the qualities of the experts yes the demographics then if we go down to the participants section here the last part says A few professionals those in law enforcement on the next page also worked with perpetrators of interpersonal abuse and coercion Do you see that do then we go on to talk about the professionals who were over the age of et cetera et cetera So thats the identification of these folks in this article right thats the description of their some of their backgrounds and demographics yes then in terms of how this data was collected initially if we go to data collection which is the next paragraph there were professionals contacted by email and only of these people responded right we have a dropout rate here of roughly a third to begin with correct wouldnt be referred to as a dropout rate in the field Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross of social science research Because dropout rate refers to something else This would be a response rate we have a response rate thats a third less than was asked right then I want to go to the Page of this study that youre relying on here which is the appendix Do you see that do this is the interview guide that was given to these unidentified professionals to guide the interview of the subjects here correct I believe that it was the professionals the experts who were interviewed So I believe that the these are the questions that were asked of the experts in their interviews right You know what a leading question is right its used yes was just a leading question right lets look at question seven here and these are nine questions that were given out as part of this study to ask for the data that was used for this study right Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross questions that were asked during the interviews to elicit data yes Question seven How do online predators human traffickers con artists gangs cults and other groups use predatory alienation term used by interviewee to isolate young adults and senior citizens Do you see that do a leading question right MS POMERANTZ Objection your Honor THE COURT Ill sustain because Im hoping youll get to something that is helpful here BY MR PAGLIUCA this study has serious flaws does it not dont I dont think that the study has serious flaws I think it has a lot of useful information As I said theres no study I would agree with every single part of To the extent theyre asking experts in the field about groups of behavior strategies techniques and modus operandi that have been well established and studied and theyre asking a group of experts to what degree and what ways have they observed these well-studied phenomena in their respective fields I think thats an appropriate question that can elicit useful information this is something you are relying on in support of your Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross opinions here today is that right one piece as an example of the scientific literature But my opinions are not relying upon any one individual piece in its entirety no MR PAGLIUCA Can we turn to Exhibit please Again thank you for doing this is another study that you gave to the government that youre relying on as part of your opinions correct an example of the type of literature among a lot of literature that Im using in the formation of my opinion yes lets look at the abstract for this exhibit This was accepted May 19th its about a year old this study correct read the first part of this abstract Sexual grooming has been deemed an integral part of the child sexual abuse process However there has yet to be a universally accepted model for this process and as a consequence there is no clear understanding of which behaviors constitute sexual grooming Do you see that do the conclusion of this study correct is an opinion of the author That is not the primary Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAGmax4 Rocchio Cross conclusion of the study no are you just saying you ignore the conclusion of the author who did this study because you dont agree with it not saying this is the conclusion The purpose of the study a conclusion generally refers to the concluding comments summarizing the main findings of the study So this is actually not part of her their conclusion Its part of their rationale for why this particular piece of research is important and needed in the field lets go through the methodology of this particular study as well THE COURT Well take about a 20-minute 30-minute break for lunch Its I think we probably need minutes just logistically so well resume at I do want to encourage you Mr Pagliuca to focus your cross less on what you might do in front of a jury because you are ably demonstrating to me so far that the points you made in your papers are cross-examination points so to the extent there are any of the opinions you want to focus on the underlying Daubert questions and you did a little bit at the end here the time would be much more effectively used MR PAGLIUCA Understood your Honor THE COURT Thank you Well resume in minutes Luncheon recess Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross A I p.m LISA ROCCHIO resumed THE COURT Mr Pagliuca you may proceed MR PAGLIUCA Thank you your Honor CROSS EXAMINATION Contd BY MR PAGLIUCA Rocchio we were talking about Exhibit and as I understand it this is the most recent attempt to validate the sexual grooming model of child sexual abusers is that correct the most recent attempt to validate this particular model yes Well A.-1180.3Actually its a recent Im not sure what research has been done since that were asked by the government to give the government whatever articles you thought were helpful with regard to your testimony here today Is that correct was asked by the government to give examples of articles that pertained to the subject matter of my testimony today And as I understand it this is a hearing to determine whether or not there were scientifically valid principles under federal law to admit this testimony You understand that I do one of the things that you did was provide the Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross government with this article Exhibit Validation of Sexual Grooming Model of Child Sex Abusers which I think you said that you thought that these authors Winters and Jeglic were credible Is that right said I believed that they have done a lot of research in the field I dont think I used the word credible Its something though that you provided to the government as support for your testimony here today Is that right is some information pertaining to my testimony yes lets continue a little bit in terms of what this study involved First of all there were a total of people that responded to this survey Is that right was the second half I believe of the study that youre referring to This was a two-part study So my understanding is in the second part there were individuals who are experts in the field yes right The pertinent one is the literature review Right was done in a structured way though It wasnt just a summary of the literature But yes The first part was a culling of scientific literature to identify particular behaviors that have been established in the literature to be associated with the process of various tactics such as grooming and abuse by offenders Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross of those items we basically cut that in half and then we had people that were ultimately interviewed about those items Is that right was in the other order If they used the people to get the list down from the items to the And the author if we can go to page of Exhibit please at the start of page bottom So that the authors conclude This study is the first to validate a model of grooming and behaviors involved in the process which is a major step toward developing a more universally accepted framework for these pre-offense behaviors Do you see that do you agree that this is the first to validate a model A.-1180.3Validate a model yes And then the authors go on to the rest of the conclusion here Im going to pick it up in the middle of that paragraph This study has established the content validity of a model of sexual grooming therein laying the groundwork for further validation of an evidence-based model of sexual grooming Do you see that do They go on to say the model this is the model were talking about here correct particular model Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross The model should undergo rigorous testing to ensure the stages accurately represent the complex process of sexual grooming Do you see that do a standardized measure of grooming behaviors should be developed based on behaviors and stages delineated in the SGM which is what theyre talking about here Right as we stand here today there has been no further rigorous testing of this model that youre aware of Correct is an enormous amount of testing and scientific study that led up to this particular model Im not aware I dont I cant speak as to whether or not theyve done research subsequent to this no even these authors say that this isnt good enough for evidence-based grooming testimony Right not my reading of the paper no And you dont have you ever asked these authors about their opinion I have not MR PAGLIUCA If we can turn to Exhibit please not going to spend a lot of time on this Youve talked about it This is the Bennett and ODonohue opinions or article in which Bennett and ODonohue say that theres a lack of consensus regarding what grooming is and talk about it Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross not meeting the Daubert standard Correct was one of their opinions at the conclusion of the article which you did not agree with Is that right I wouldnt presume to make an opinion about to offer an opinion about Daubert specifically but certainly Im here to talk about the state of the scientific literature in my areas of expertise But the most recent state of the scientific literature is Exhibit Is that right Thats an example of a recent article that was done and not the most recent nor is it the only did you give any other more recent article to the government in support of your testimony here today would have to look at the dates of all of the articles I gave them Im not sure of the order of publication Its possible that this was pub the Winters article weve been talking about was published I believe in So I would certainly there have been articles published since that time you know of one that does anything with the Winters study to move it forward to validate it in any way specifically I would have to look for that At the moment no Thank you Exhibit Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross THE COURT Can I ask do you agree with the proposition that this was a version of it is that the meaning of grooming or an understanding of what constitutes grooming strategies and the like is contested in the literature THE WITNESS I wouldnt say that its contested I would say that theres actually substantial agreement and theres more agreement than disagreement So I would say that the concept is well accepted Exactly how to define it is the piece that I think theyre working on And also which specific stages or what order and the process by which it happens I think is something that these authors well the Winters authors are trying to move forward on But I think the very concept of the idea that offenders use a variety of tactics modus operandi and behaviors in the process of developing a relationship with their intended victims is well established and accepted in the peer-reviewed literature and scientific community THE COURT To the extent youre familiar with the body of literature around trauma bonding in the sex-worker context is there a comparable sort of dialogue and discussion among within the field as to what is an appropriate model what counts as deemed strategies and the like THE WITNESS Im aware of some research thats been done looking at the types of behaviors and groomings which Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross would be various stages in the pimp and prostitute literature that are analogous to this So for example how victims are targeted and selected how the relationship develops over time what sorts of behaviors are done to influence and coerce and then to develop that trauma bond and attachment which may get harder for example tactics that involve isolation and increased dependency and things like that THE COURT Do you have a sense is the state of the literature on that subject more settled or more advanced than it is on the concept of grooming in child sexual abuse THE WITNESS I Im not sure that I can answer that I think its analogous literature Theyre talking about the same things so Im not I cant comment on that area of the literature specifically THE COURT Go ahead MR PAGLIUCA Thank you your Honor Ms Drescher if you could pull up Exhibit for me please is the article that you talked about by Dr Dietz And again Dr Dietz wrote this in published in Is that right Dr Dietz warns on page that there is considerable risk of misleading the fact finder into believing that these latter behaviors are well-established predictors of Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross child sexual abuse Do you see that thats yet another experts opinion in this field about there being problems with this grooming moniker Correct I wouldnt agree with that statement are some other studies that you provided to the government that have not been introduced into evidence And I just want to ask you if you recall these There is the study Sexual Grooming of Children Review of Literature and Theoretical Considerations Do you recall that title is familiar I dont recall the contents of that specific article you recall the conclusion being that there is still no understanding about this phenomena when talking about grooming you talking about the Craven article understanding is that was written a long time ago But no I couldnt sit here and tell you that I have a recollection of what specifically the conclusion of any of those specific articles were without having an opportunity to review them again MR PAGLIUCA May I approach the witness your Honor THE COURT What are you identifying MR PAGLIUCA Im identifying Defendants Exhibit A Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross which is this article If I may approach your clerk and give your clerk some copies THE COURT Thats fine MS POMERANTZ May I have a copy THE COURT The government needs a copy MR PAGLIUCA Yes Ive got copies for everybody THE CLERK Do you have another copy Do you have an extra copy for us MR PAGLIUCA I do BY MR PAGLIUCA is as you identified the Craven article correct is in the introduction Ms Craven says that this phenomenon of grooming is little there is little understanding about this phenomenon correct are you reading from Im sorry Q.-1180.3Introduction middle of the page Fourth line down this phenomenon Yes thats the ultimate conclusion of this article understanding that it was written in Right whether it was the ultimate conclusion that is something that they posit in the introduction yes we go to page to the conclusion Despite the wide acceptance of the term sexual grooming of children is not understood clearly particularly in the public domain Do you Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross see that MR PAGLIUCA May I approach again with Exhibit your Honor THE COURT OK MR PAGLIUCA Your Honor I move to admit A which has been tendered previously THE COURT Which has been entered previously MR PAGLIUCA Tendered THE COURT Oh tendered MR PAGLIUCA Yes THE COURT No objection MS POMERANTZ No objection THE COURT Defendants Exhibit A is admitted to the hearing record Defendants Exhibit A received in evidence THE COURT we already have in dont we MR PAGLIUCA I dont believe so THE COURT OK MS POMERANTZ No your Honor THE COURT Thank you BY MR PAGLIUCA you see Exhibit Doctor do is yet another study that you provided to the Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross government in support of your testimony here today correct A.-1180.3Partially in support yes this is by the same folks who did the study Winters and Jeglic Right abstract here this study was actually giving professionals a list undergraduate students a list of potential grooming behaviors to see if they could identify grooming behaviors And there were a total of undergraduate students who were provided with this information Do you recall that dont recall specifically I recog I can recall This was the article that in which they did two things They developed the model which they later tested And then they created a scenario in which they attempted to see whether or not grooming behaviors could be predicted And the results of this study were that grooming behaviors could not be predicted Correct A.-1180.3Correct this is what ended up with the attempt to validate the model which theyre still working on Right youre talking about two different concepts I cant really answer that question Bottom line Nobody could predict grooming out of people undergraduate students Right Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross was the conclusion of the article yes this is in this article correct was written in published in perhaps yes we are talking about in the conclusion and implications here which is on page The present study found that individuals are not able to identify the potential predatory behaviors that a child molester may employ Correct able to identify it ahead of time which is different than scientific literature looking at retrospective studies But yes youre correct that this article found that we couldnt predict who is and is not ahead of time going to be a predator based on certain behaviors and grooming And the reason is once you believe that someone sexually assaulted someone then you can in hindsight go back and look at behavior and characterize it as grooming Right actually not what hindsight bias in the as referenced in the grooming literature refers to Id like to take a look at Exhibit now which has been admitted or MR PAGLIUCA I dont know if I admitted that your Honor But I move for the admission of Exhibit THE COURT Without objection MS POMERANTZ Im so sorry THE COURT Defendants Exhibit Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross MS POMERANTZ No objection your Honor THE COURT Is admitted to the hearing record Defendants Exhibit received in evidence MR PAGLIUCA If we could pull up Exhibit please THE COURT Government MR PAGLIUCA Yes please BY MR PAGLIUCA Q.-1180.3Exhibit is the study that you appear to have relied on with regard to disclosure issues Is that correct something I submitted in part yes as you sit here today can you tell us anything else that you submitted with regard to your testimony about delayed disclosure and supporting literature couldnt give you a list but again my opinions are not based on any one article or even solely on my knowledge of the literature Its based on an interaction of the totality of my education training skills experience and knowledge of the scientific and clinical and professional literature So looking at Exhibit this is a survey essentially of a number of publications that talk about barriers of disclosure Correct my understanding is this was a study that was looking at understanding that delayed disclosure is very common they were trying to determine what sorts of things present as barriers to disclosure and as facilitators of disclosure Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross do you recall that initially the authors considered articles and selected out of those dont recall that as we sit here today specifically no Im sorry if we can go to page of Government Exhibit Page starts a table that has a summary of the various articles that were reviewed Is that correct my understanding yes lets look at some of the this study considered males and females correct you know that males tend to not report as frequently as females for a variety of psychological issues correct A.-1180.3Correct Either not report or delay further that would be one of the predictors or facilitators of delayed disclosure youre aware are you aware that this case does not involve any allegation of delayed reporting by males MS POMERANTZ Objection THE COURT Whats the grounds MS POMERANTZ Your Honor she doesnt know about this case the specific details MR PAGLIUCA Well I think thats my point your Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross Honor part of my point THE COURT If the point is that she doesnt know any of the facts of the specific case and the government concedes thats true we can move on MR PAGLIUCA Yes I guess the other point your Honor which I can develop is these studies that are included and impact the statistics are really not relevant here because they deal with males or a combination of males and females and there are only a few of them that deal with females specifically THE COURT OK MR PAGLIUCA So when were conflating these things it conflates the numbers May I proceed your Honor THE COURT You may MR PAGLIUCA Thank you that the first study which is in in the last column is all males Do you see that you the page is upside down on my screen Can we rotate it so that I can look at what youre seeing please MR PAGLIUCA I dont know if Ms Drescher can do that or not THE WITNESS Or I can look at a paper copy But I theres no way I can read that THE COURT I cant read it either Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross MS POMERANTZ Your Honor I believe theres a binder for Dr Rocchio THE COURT OK Is it in there MS POMERANTZ It should be under tab your Honor THE COURT Tab MR ROHRBACH And would your Honor like a copy of it THE COURT I cant hear if you youre not using the mike MS POMERANTZ Would your Honor like a binder as well THE COURT Sure All right So were looking at Government MR PAGLIUCA Correct your Honor page of going to skip the next one Dr Rocchio which deals with a discrete set of individuals If we go to the third one down if you go to the right-hand column which is the summary includes this is a percent disclosure rate as identified in this summary Correct percent did not disclose until after the age of I believe of the participants had not disclosed their CSA experiences before the age of Right means half did Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross And of that half weve got males in that population Correct male and female adult survivors Right percent of whom were identifying as female So at least percent disclosed before the age of according to this study Right A.-1180.3Correct we dont know how delayed this reporting was or was not mean disclosures that were made prior to the age of not in this summary Id have to look to see whether that was addressed in the article itself But no thats not referenced in the summary But you didnt do that in preparation for your testimony here today correct particular study Q.-1180.3Correct I dont believe I did The next one down Leclerc and Wortley Now you spent some time talking about offender-generated data as part of the basis for your opinion correct Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross right And if we go to the summary here the author is critical of offender-generated data or questions offender-generated data through self-reports because it could be subject to cognitive distortions minimization or exaggerations correct think that they are identifying potential issues that could be present with offender-generated data If we go to page the McElvaney and Culhane article opinions in that study did continue You didnt refer to all of their opinions just part of them OK The government can ask you questions on redirect if theyd like this opinion in this the findings are Majority of children told their mothers and their peers first Do you see that those who disclosed the majority told mothers and peers yes Then the next study when the that study though was among everybody in that study had already disclosed It was a study of children who had already disclosed to look at who they disclosed to Then we have the next study here minor victims Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross allege when were talking about people outside of the family we have a percent disclosure rate before one year as reported here correct sorry I would have to read where youre reading from Im not sure what can I take a moment to just read the opinion THE COURT Sure is the Dumont article right Id like to turn to page to the bottom of the page the Schonbucher Maier Mohler-Kuo study you just ask me a question about the article you just asked me to read percent I said I had read it I wasnt answering your question Can you if you want an answer to the question Ill need to hear it again fine The Court can read this THE COURT So the question is withdrawn MR PAGLIUCA Sure your Honor Yes This is admitted into evidence THE COURT And to the extent you asked a question about it its withdrawn MR PAGLIUCA Yes your Honor Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross THE COURT OK BY MR PAGLIUCA going down to the bottom of page Actually you know what its on my screen properly now so its going to be easier for me to look there because its bigger OK I want to just highlight here one of the problems with these studies that youre relying on is weve got a comment Two-thirds of the sample did not disclose right away But we dont define what right away means do we to be clear the article that I submitted was a summary of the literature Im not saying that I have read and examined every study cited in this particular article So I really cant speak as to how those in this article identified or defined rate of disclosure I would expect however that it would be defined in the full article itself Its not defined here in the brief summary But typically in scientific literature it would the time period of disclosure that the authors were investigating I would expect to find that in the article itself But apparently you havent gone back to look at the underlying data Is that right have not gone back to look at every reference cited in Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross this particular article I have extensively reviewed underlying data as it pertains to this subject over the course of my career But this is the article you gave to the government in support of your testimony Right partial support yes Page of the top the Alaggia study This one we have a this involves male it says well percent We have a percent disclosure rate identified here during childhood Do you see that then percent claimed repressed memory Right what it says there yes dont need to go through all of these But fair to say that its an overstatement based on the literature to claim that a majority of child alleged victims fail to report sex abuse during childhood would not agree with that no you point to one study that supports your conclusion here or your opinion here that a majority fail to report study you just cited the Alaggia disclosed disclosed which would mean percent did not says during childhood We dont know exactly when the disclosure occurred or didnt Youre talking about substantial amounts in your government testimony here today Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross not the difference between and percent was talking about the majority And they define there I believe in this article again assuming this summary is accurate that they were defining childhood as under the age of I have two more of these I think we need to look at THE COURT Are we still on disclosure or another opinion MR PAGLIUCA Yes were on disclosure THE COURT I think you can wrap up disclosure MR PAGLIUCA All right your Honor I get it BY MR PAGLIUCA there are other reasons outside of the statistics that individuals who at some point later in life claim to be sexually assaulted make that claim Correct A.-1180.3Outside of what statistics youve been talking about delayed disclosure as a predictor of sexual assault Is that correct that is incorrect is the significance as far as you are concerned with delays in disclosures as part of your opinions THE COURT If youd like Mr Pagliuca you dont have to but you can take off your mask in the podium box if you like MR PAGLIUCA I appreciate it Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross THE COURT And I would suggest that the microphone point directly at you MR PAGLIUCA Yes THE COURT Go ahead the significance of delayed disclosure as it relates to my opinion is it is part of our understanding of phenomenology of child sexual abuse and the ways in which individuals tell So Im not identifying delayed disclosure as a predictor Im simply saying that it is a common phenomenon that is observed in the scientific literature to occur among children who are sexually abused there are many other reasons why these reports may surface not immediately Correct Im commenting at this point my opinion is that delayed disclosure is common Im not do you have a question about the reasons why There are many reasons why There are allegations that are made months weeks years after an alleged event Correct A.-1180.3Correct they may or may not have anything to do with the veracity of the allegation Correct reasons may not have again are you I mean are you asking me can people make false claims Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross course yes many reasons Correct that could be outright lying could be a reason be memories could be a reason correct be Q.-1180.3Intoxication could be a reason these are reasons that have been hypothesized to explain possibilities for false allegations yes they are accepted in the literature correct lying exists or that intoxication can lead to to distorted claims Sure Or a variety of psychiatric disorders correct Im not aware of the scientific research that has studied specifically these as predictors of false allegations Theres a very large body of scientific literature documenting of course that false allegations can occur but they are represent a very small minority of allegations that are made And I believe the article that youre reviewing the authors are putting forth some hypotheses as to how or why that might occur But I dont believe its coming from a scientific study and Im not aware of one at this point So wrapping up here THE COURT I would again try to point it directly at Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio Cross you MR PAGLIUCA OK THE COURT Try that MR PAGLIUCA All right THE COURT Thank you is the study that you are relying on for your opinions about whether that has been tested here is no single study that Im relying upon for my opinion And what is the known potential rate of error for any of your opinions would depend on what youre how youre defining error So for example in the study where they had a bunch of professionals identify for example the relevance of particular behaviors to grooming in that particular study they looked for I think the standard in the field was a statistical significance or measure of agreement So different studies use different measures There are other studies that looked at inter-rater reliability In other words if someone is coding the content of a qualitative interview thats been done theyll look at the degree of agreement and of course potential disagreement which would be error in differences of opinion and attempt to address and resolve those But as I had indicated earlier in this field a pure error rate as in many areas of the social sciences cannot be Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps identified because we cant randomly assign individuals to be sexually abused or not So we have to look at other measures of testability and scientific ways to study these issues as well as acceptance within the commun general and professional community finally what is the study that youre relying on to determine that this theory of grooming has gained general acceptance in the scientific community Ive said none of my opinions are based on any single study alone MR PAGLIUCA Thats all I have your Honor Thank you THE COURT OK Thank you Anything Ms Pomerantz MS POMERANTZ Your Honor may we have a moment THE COURT You may Counsel confer MS POMERANTZ Nothing from the government your Honor THE COURT All right Thank you Dr Rocchio thank you very much Youre excused THE WITNESS Thank you your Honor Witness excused THE COURT I just I have a couple of questions for the defense Does the defense intend to impeach witness Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C LBAAMAX5ps credibility based on failure to disclose at earlier time periods MR PAGLIUCA Yes your Honor THE COURT And then do you intend to impeach any witnesses based on substance abuse MR PAGLIUCA Yes THE COURT OK All right I think I have what I need Im going to give the reasons for my opinion I think probably at our proceeding on Monday but what I intend to do is deny the Daubert motion except with respect to the opinion that expresses that the presence of another individual can facilitate sexual abuse of minors But otherwise the motion will be denied And as I said Ill give my reasons for the denial and the reason for the partial grant on Monday OK I think with that we can transition to the proceeding So well break for ten minutes We will as I said have to seal the courtroom as required by the rule which will mean all nine party participants have to leave and the live feed will have to be turn off And well confirm in the overflow rooms that those are off So well break for ten Thank you Recess Remainder of hearing sealed Case Document Filed Page of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS P.C INDEX OF EXAMINATION Examination of Page LISA ROCCHIO Direct By Ms Pomerantz Cross By Mr Pagliuca Cross By Mr Pagliuca GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS Exhibit No Received DEFENDANT EXHIBITS Exhibit No Received A Case Document Filed Page of
185,529 characters